Re: The key is in the word key !
- From: Abdullah Konushevci <akonushevci@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 20 May 2007 07:55:15 -0700
On May 20, 10:44 am, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 19, 2:51 pm, Abdullah Konushevci <akonushe...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 19, 9:58 am, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 17, 1:28 pm,Abdullah Konushevci<akonushe...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 16, 10:08 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 15, 10:40 pm,Abdullah Konushevci<akonushe...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
On May 14, 7:22 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Are these words related?
Alb. akull ice; Serb. hladno cold; gladak Russ. holodniy/холодный;
gladkiy/гладкий plane, even, smooth, slick, sleek skoljženiye/
скольжение slide, glide; Serb. gladak smooth, klizanje sliding.
Alb. akullnajë glacier; Serb. lednik, ; Russ. lednik/ледник
Alb.ngre, rrit lift, raise, erect; Serb. rasti grow; Russian rasti/
расти grow; relation among grow, rasti and ngre?
Alb. ngrij freeze, chill; ngricë frost. What's happened here? This
Albanian word (ngrij) sounds es Serbian syntagm "ne greje"; like in
"soba se ne greje" (the room had no heating; the room is cold)?
Alb. ngroh warm up; Serb. zagrejati, ugrejati, nagrejati se (warm
oneself); Alb.ngrohem warm oneself
hëngra eat; Serb. hrana (food), nahraniti (feed); Ger. Hunger
(hunger)?
I would like to here Abdulah's opinon if he knew the etymology of the
above Albanian words.
DV
First, you raise many question, but because I am very tired, I will
try to answer just on some ones.
Alb akull-1 'ice', according to V. Orel, is from Gmc *jakulaz 'icicle,
glacier', cf. ON jakull 'icicle', OE gicel. In Albanian the source may
be East Germanic (Balkan Gothic?). The los of the anlaut *j-,
probably, shows that the loan penetrated into Proto-Albanian at a
stage when there was no j- like sound here.
Exactly this j- is too problematic, for Latin loans, like: ju:dica:re> Alb gjykoj 'to judge', ju:venca > gjyvengë 'harlot' testify that the
anlaut *j- have yielded Alb voiced palatal gj.
Semantically speaking it is very obvious that Alb akull 'ice' could be
a loan from Gmc *jakulaz, but phonetically exists unsurpassed
difficulties to explain *jakulaz as *akulaz, if we haven't any
evidence about it.
My view is that Alb akull is derived from *ak'-lo through regular rule
R (resonant) - V (vowel) > V - R, if vowels is in unstressed position.
Palatal *k' followed by liquid usually is treated in PAlb as plain
velar. That akull was originally an adjective used as adverb testifies
this example: Veshur akull/shpic (<German spitz) 'Dressed sharply,
with taste'. So, semantically Alb akull with meaning 'ice' is
contaminated or 'loaned' from Germanic, but phonetically is derived
from PIE root *ak'- 'sharp'.
Alb akull-2 'steel' could be related to Slavic kaliti 'to make hot, to
harden (of iron)'. Both words are derived from *kelH1- 'to strike',
but, if we agree with this isogloss, we must reconstruct PIE form
*H2kelH1-, but Grk keleos 'green woodpecker' gives no evidence of
initial *H2 (cf. Latin calamita:s 'damage, injure', Lith kalu 'strike,
forge'), so we should assume some Hx or Ha laryngeal that will explain
the anlaut a- in Albanian cognate.
I will leave other words for tomorrow.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thank you for your answer, Abdullah.
Let us first see where the English word 'cold' came from (OE cald;
German kalt). In Serbian/Slavic it is clear that 'led' (ice) came out
from the ur-basis BEL. Of course, it demands a very long explanation,
but I will try to explain it in short.
First, the sun (BEL) is (as I told many times before) the source of
heat and light energy and indirectly the sun is "Creator" of fluid via
cloud (Serbian oBLAk; German WOLke) and through rain shower (Serbian
PLJUsak). Down there, on the Earth, tide (Serbian PLima) or FLood
(Serbian poPLava) FLOOds (Serb. PLAvi) the coast (Serb. oBALa) and
neighboring FIELds (Serb. POLJa).
Sometimes water gushes (Serb. PLine) across the nearby FIELds (Serb.
POLJana) leaving the muddy land (Serb. BLAto) behinde. In this case
mad (Serb. BLAto) is a sort of fertile sheath, coat or PELage (Serb.
oBLOga) from whence later the most beautiful green FIELd (POLJana)
appears.
I think, it is unnecessary to remind that Serbian BLAto (mud) is a
cognate of Latin POLLutio (Serb. oBLAtiti means "to pollute in moral
sense, dishonor").
Of course, in Winter water stays frozen in the FIELds (Serb. POLJana);
so it happened that FIELd is not POLLuted (Serb. oBLAćeno) but iced
(Serb. POLeđeno). Now we can see that Serbian noun 'led' (Russian лед/
led) is derived from the former "prefixed" form (PO-Ledina); from
whence we also have obtained two other words - POLJE and ledina
(meadow; poledina => polje + ledina; cf. English land and Serbian
ledina).
Following the above logic, we must doubt that English meadow sprang
from the verb mow or it happened in different manner; i.e. both words,
meadow and mow, might have been derived from the noun mud.
Although it seems that the history of the Slavic word 'led' is
resolved there is another Slavic word that makes our previous findings
not so clear as we believed a few moments ago. That word is the
adjective 'hladno' (cold); Russian холоднo/holodno! The truth is, in
Serbian we can say 'ledeno' (cold) instead of 'hladno' and the common
people are still uttering 'ladno; i.e. without the initial sound 'h'.
One thing is for sure; Slavic 'led', ('hladno' 'ledeno') cannot be a
borrowing from Germanic *kalding- (Old Icelandic kelda). In order to
resolve this enigma we must go further in our analysis and try to see
where the Serbian verb 'kolati' (circulate) is coming from...
DV
Slavic led 'ice' has its cognate in Baltic languages: Lith ledas,
beside ledus; Latv ledus and OPrus ladis, but it has no cognate in
other IE languages. Seems to be only Balto-Slavic isogloss. (Skok,
ERHSJ, pp. 283-284.)
According to Skok, syllable hla- is from liquids' metathesis, cf. Rus
holod, Polish chlod. Its IE base is not exactly explained. Brückner
and Mladenov reconstruct IE *sk'ol-, Ablaut form of *k'el-, some
variant of *gel- 'cold; to freeze' (cf. English chill, cold from Gmc
*kalda-; keel; Latin gelare 'to freeze', gelu 'frost, cold', glacies
'ice' etc.). So pre-Slavic *chold& will be a kin with Av sar&-da,
NPersian sard, Oset sald and with Lith šaltas with d > t change.
(Skok, ERHSJ, pp. 671.)
Konushevci
Slavic 'led' (ice) has nothing in common with the noun 'hlad' (shade)
and adjective hladno (hladnan). If we take Serbian words
'zaklanjati' (shield) and 'zakloniti' (screen, overshadow, shelter) we
will be able to see that Serbian za-hladneti (getting cold) came from
the ancient Sur-Gon-Bel basis, similar to 'sukljati/kuljati' (gush),
kolati (circulate), okolina (surrounding, neighborhood), okoliti
(surround, encircle).
The story that Slavic 'holod' had been borrowed from alleged Germanic
*kalding- could have been situated in the realm of child fantasies and
"grown-up" fairy-tales ;-)
Of course, Slavic holod and Germanic kald are the words derived from
the same primal source - Gon-Bel-Gon ;-)
DV
And who is claiming that Slavic holod is loaned from Germanic
*kalda-'cold', derived from PIE root *gel- 'cold; to freeze' with
regular operation of Grimm's Law *g > Gmc k and regular *o > a?
Konushevci- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Talking about the Slavic word 'kolodec, kladenac' (spring, outpouring)
Vasmer says "преобразовано из др.-герм. (гот.) *kalding- от *kaldiōn.
Obviously, he thought that this word is as connected with the Slavic
holod (cold) as holod is with Kalt (cf. Serbian koliti circulate). The
key is in the word key ;-)
DV
What on earth has to do 'kolodec' or 'kladenac' with 'holod'? I agree
that 'kolodec' or 'kladenac' with meaning '(cold) spring' are loans
from Gmc languages, second one with known liquids' metathesis, till
'holod' has nothing to do with it, despite the fact that 'hladan'
means 'cold'. 'Kladenac' and 'holod' are as phonetically distinctive (/
k/ as voiceless dorsal and /h/ as voiceless aspiration), as well as
semantically: 'cold' and 'spring'.
.
- References:
- Albanian cold, warm and hungry
- From: Dušan Vukotić
- Re: Albanian cold, warm and hungry
- From: Abdullah Konushevci
- Re: Albanian cold, warm and hungry
- From: Dušan Vukotić
- Re: Albanian cold, warm and hungry
- From: Abdullah Konushevci
- Re: Albanian cold, warm and hungry
- From: Dušan Vukotić
- Re: Albanian cold, warm and hungry
- From: Abdullah Konushevci
- The key is in the word key !
- From: Dušan Vukotić
- Albanian cold, warm and hungry
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