Re: Ancient writing systems

On Jun 5, 11:58 am, António Marques wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
On May 29, 10:09 am, António Marques wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
Aeneid 1:101
SCVTA VIRVM GALEASQVE ET FORTIA CORPORA VOLVIT
De Rerum Natura 5:1347
SED FACERE ID NON TAM VINCENDI SPE VOLVERVNT
The first requires [wolwit] 3sg. 'rolled'; the second requires
[wolue:runt] 3pl. 'wished', from which we can see that the 3sg.
'wished' is [woluit],
We can?

Yes. We have other examples showing the metrical equivalence of the
perfect stem with different personal endings. E.g.:

Aeneid 1:12
VRBS ANTIQVA FVIT TYRII TENVERE COLONI

Ib. 11:275
HAEC ADEO EX ILLO MIHI IAM SPERANDA FVERVNT

The perfect stem fu- can only be short.

Ib. 2:1
CONTICVERE OMNES INTENTIQVE ORA TENEBANT

Ib. 3:718
CONTICVIT TANDEM FACTOQVE HIC FINE QVIEVIT

The perfect stem conticu- can only be dactylic (long-short-short).

That is good, but not definite proof that it worked that way outisde
verse (though the consistence makes it look likelier). Doesn't the
Aeneid have a couple of verses with the wrong meter, btw? (not that
that's particularly relevant here.)

Spondaic lines, as Richard mentioned. Their low frequency does not
vitiate the other reasoning.

As for a vast conspiracy of ancient poets to confound modern scholars
by intentionally misrepresenting the phonemic system, I might buy into
that if I listened to as much loony-lefty talk radio as Peter, but I
don't.

contrasting with [wolwit].
Not necessarily.

Counterexamples, please?

Of what? I'm saying that [wolwit] only contrasts with [woluit] if you've
already established that they have different phonemes.

They have different phonemes, and I did establish that.

You're saying that, hearing VOLVIT in isolation, a native speaker would
have known for certain what it meant. I'm disputing that.

I didn't say that. [wolwit] could be 3sg. present or 3sg. perfect.
[woluit] in isolation without an object would likely prompt "Quid?
Quid voluit?".

Aeneid 1:24
PRIMA QVOD AD TROIAM PRO CARIS GESSERAT ARGIS
Ib. 1:249
TROIA NUNC PLACIDA COMPOSTVS PACE QVIESCIT
Here the first requires [tro:jam] acc. sg. 'Troy'; the second requires
[tro:ia] neut. acc. pl. 'Trojan (arms)', contrasting with the nom. sg. [tro:ja] 'Troy'.
But does an acc [iam] enforce a nom [ia]?

All this is extremely flimsy, at best.

If you have a more robust analysis, I'm all ears.

I don't presume to have the competence to do original analysis, not even
for my language. I'm just not at all convinced that such a far-reaching
conclusion can be gotten from your evidence, as I think that the
evidence is not overwhelming or solidly unambiguous and that the
resulting analysis is probably not the most useful. In other words,
should ('classical') Latin have had contrasting /u/ and /w/, I expect
we'd have seen more of it. I'd put it as 'there may be evidence that at
one stage latin may have had an opposition between inherited syllabic
/u/ followed by /i/ and the inherited diphthong /wi/ (this opposition,
if it existed, would disappear later on and has no relation to the
romance developments)'.

Why do you expect to have seen more examples of the contrast? Have
you ever heard of "low functional load", or the English example of
"Rosa's roses" which is one of very few explicit contrasts between /@/
and /+/ in English?

If you talk about "syllabic /u/" you are merely arguing in a circle,
and it might be a good idea to look at Tuscan and other "minority"
Romance languages before making blanket statements about Romance
developments.

.

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