Re: Ancient writing systems

Am Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:54:56 -0700 schrieb Peter T. Daniels:

On Jun 11, 5:26 pm, "Richard Wordingham" <jrw0...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in messagenews:1181533299.562606.12860@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





On Jun 10, 7:04 pm, "Douglas G. Kilday" <fufl...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:48 am, "Richard Wordingham" wrote:
It is very unlikely that 42 of 44 lines containing IVLVS would be
spondaic. Rather, the "funniness" of this name probably rendered it
very useful as the last word of a "normal" dactylic hexameter, with a
dactyl in the fifth foot.
The 44th case comes from Ovid's Armores Book 3 Poem 9 Lines 13 to 16:
FRATRIS IN AENEAE SIC ILLVM FVNERE DICVNT
EGRESSVM TECTIS PVLCHER IVLE TVIS
NEC MINVS EST CONFVSA VENVS MORENTE TIBVLLO
QVAM IVVENI RVPIT CVM FERVS INGVEN APER
and my guide admits of no exceptions to this pattern. Line 14 seems to
force the analysis of IVLVS as /iu:lus/, i.e. trisyllabic. What do we
know
of the pronunciation of the derived adjective IVLEVS? It is a near
synonym
of IVLIVS. My dictionary marks the 'E' as long.
Excellent! I believe you have found a Peter-proof example of the
scansion. As for IVLEVS, my dictionary marks it as [iu:le:us] and
cites Ovid twice, once with AVI, again with CALENDAE. I have no
printed texts of Ovid, so I will have to look at Perseus.-

Sorry, how is the occurrence of /i/ in these lines supposed to prove
that there's a distinct phoneme /j/ ?

The metre establishes that IVLE in Amores Book 3 Poem 9 Line 14 is [iu:le].
For the example of 'IVLO' given, the metre of the line is significantly less
unusual if the pronunciation is [iu:lo:] rather than [ju:lo:]. The two
facts together make it even more likely that the pronunciation of 'IVLO' was
[iu:lo:]. Now the metre allegedly demonstrated that [IVNO] was pronounced
[ju:no:]. (In theory it could be argued that the pronunciation is
conditioned by the ending of the previous word - I strongly doubt it
though.) Now, if [i] and [j] do not represent different phonemes and we do
not have free variation, then there must be a conditioning factor. /l/ v.
/n/ looks unlikely - what conditioning factor do you suggest?

The verse itself!

English words can on occasion take on unusual stress patterns so as to
fit in the commonplace iamb. Why not the same thing mutatis mutandis
for +/- vocalic in Latin?


Do we have evidence for that? Like two verses one of which scans
"iambus", the other one "jambus"?

Joachim
--
At non effugies meos iambos
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Ancient writing systems
    ... It is very unlikely that 42 of 44 lines containing IVLVS would be ... For the example of 'IVLO' given, the metre of the line is significantly less ... then there must be a conditioning factor. ... then the supposed poetic evidence for voluit/volvit isn't ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Ancient writing systems
    ... It is very unlikely that 42 of 44 lines containing IVLVS would be ... cites Ovid twice, once with AVI, again with CALENDAE. ... For the example of 'IVLO' given, the metre of the line is significantly less ... then there must be a conditioning factor. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Ancient writing systems
    ... AT PVER ASCANIVS CVI NVNC COGNOMEN IVLO ... IMPERIVM SINE FINE DEDI QVIN ASPERA IVNO ... Another verse ends 'PENATIBVS ET MAGNIS DIS' in Book VIII. ... That IVLIVS is said to come from IVLVS is ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Ancient writing systems
    ... It is very unlikely that 42 of 44 lines containing IVLVS would be ... then there must be a conditioning factor. ... I strongly suspect that these contrasts were neutralised in some ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Ancient writing systems
    ... It is very unlikely that 42 of 44 lines containing IVLVS would be ... then there must be a conditioning factor. ... then the supposed poetic evidence for voluit/volvit isn't ...
    (sci.lang)
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