Re: Continents in Chinese
- From: LEE Sau Dan <danlee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:16:18 +0800
"ekkilu" == ekkilu <ekkilu@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
ekkilu> Europe: Ouzhou Dalu Asia: Yazhou Dalu Eurasia: Ouya Dalu
ekkilu> Africa: Feizhou Dalu America: Meizhou Dalu North America:
ekkilu> Beimeizhou Dalu, Beimei Dalu South America: Nanmeizhou
ekkilu> Dalu, Nanmei Dalu Antarctica: Nanji Dalu, Nanjizhou Dalu
ekkilu> Australia: Aozhou Dalu Oceania: Dayangzhou Dalu
>> Note that <zhou1> alone already represents "continent". There
>> is no need to repeat "da4lu4" (continent). If you do so, then
>> you sound "geographical/geological".
ekkilu> Sigh... the "repetition" here is not with "Dalu", but with
ekkilu> "zhou". As you can see, "zhou" can be dropped in many
ekkilu> cases.
No, you can't. You say <ou1 da4lu4> and no one would understand you.
ekkilu> If you keep thinking in Western definition of continent,
ekkilu> you immediately run into troubles with terms like
ekkilu> Zhongmeizhou (Central America) and Lading Meizhou (Latin
ekkilu> America).
That's because <mei3zhou1> has already become an opaque term to
translate "America".
ekkilu> Err... correct, but so tell me how did the Chinese come to
ekkilu> designate a modern concept like "continent" with the same
ekkilu> character.
Build a compound word out of it. So, <da4zhou1>, literally meaning
"big island", is coined to translate "continent".
When this compound word is in turn used to build a longer compound, we
drop the <da4> to make the compound concise. So, <ou1luo2ba1> (Europa)
+ <da4zhou1> (continent) becomes <ou1luo2ba1 zhou1> (Europe), which is
routinely abbreviated as <ou1zhou1>.
ekkilu> Are you going to tell me that when the Chinese used
ekkilu> Poluozhou and Aozhou to designate Borneo and Australia,
The former is a simple <zhou1> meaning "island".
In the latter, the <zhou1> is an abbreviated form of <da4zhou1>,
meaning "continent".
ekkilu> they were already distinguishing between islands and
ekkilu> continents?
Yes, I think so. The Chinese learnt about the name "Australia" from
the Europeans, and I guess by that time, the Europeans have already
designated Australia as a "continent".
ekkilu> Or is it more likely that when the Chinese intellectuals
ekkilu> first encountered a Western map, they realized that
ekkilu> "continents" are surrounded by water, and that no matter
ekkilu> what sizes those continents were, they (the continents)
ekkilu> recalled exactly the traditional Chinese mental image of a
ekkilu> "Zhou"?
Maybe. So, they call them <da4zhou1>, which simply means "big
island". To align with Western terms, we thus routinely translate
"continent" as <da4zhou1>.
This situation sounds familiar with the German word "Stadt", which can
mean both "town" and "city". But the Germans sometimes use
"Großstadt" vs. "Stadt" to mark the difference between "city" and
"town".
ekkilu> When the Chinese named with the word "Zhou" for
ekkilu> landmasses, they did NOT distinguish between islands and
ekkilu> continents.
Right. That's a single, unified concept. We coined <da4zhou1> to
translate "continent".
ekkilu> (If you think otherwise, show me a single piece of proof
ekkilu> that the Chinese were already distinguishing islands
ekkilu> continents when they named Australia as a Zhou, and that
ekkilu> the Zhou in Aozhou unmistakenably meant continent and not
ekkilu> island.)
I think the translated did have the distinction between "island" and
"continent" in mind when translating "Australia" into Chinese. (Who
are they? I think they are the first batch of missionaries, not
Chinese.)
Australia might have been known to the Chinese (e.g. Cheng1he2's
fleet) under other names. But we're talking about the specific
translation from "Australia", which is an European name.
ekkilu> That distinction came later.
I beg to differ.
ekkilu> Borneo and Australia are both "Zhous" in Chinese, and I
ekkilu> don't think people really think of one Zhou as an island
ekkilu> and the other Zhou as a continent. They are just Zhous.
It depends on what people you're asking. We all learn basic world
geographic in elementary school. Most of us learn "Australia" from
the "List of the Seven Continents". (For those who are too poor to
attend school, he may have learnt about "The Seven Continents" from
parents, or other educated friends. We regard this knowledge as just
common sense.) So, we're aware of the designation of "Australia" as a
continent from a very small age.
Much like being educated from the age of 6 that whales and dolphins
aren't fishes but mammals. We can't tell that from their names. We
are educated.
ekkilu> often "Dazhou" is used to distinguish the big Zhous from
ekkilu> these small Zhous.
>> No. <Da4zhou1> would refer to "continents". I believe this
>> term was invented to translate the Western idea of "continent".
ekkilu> Come on. Name me one single continent that officially
ekkilu> carries "Dazhou" in its full name. Answer: None, zero,
ekkilu> nil, nada.
Which continent besides Australia has got an "officially recognized"
name? Does Australia recognize <ao4zhou1> as it's official name?
(The PRC likes to call it <ao4da4li4ya4> instead.)
ekkilu> "Dazhou" is used only to enumerate and classify.
No. Not anymore. It has gained a special, non-literal, meaning:
"continent".
ekkilu> So, ask yourself, why is there a need to come up with this
ekkilu> term, if not to differentiate it from the smaller Zhous?
Translating Western concepts.
I have an analogue again from German. The Germans say casually that
"die Chinesen essen mit Stäbchen". In this context, "Stäbchen",
literally meaning "little sticks", actually means "chopsticks". So,
does that mean the Germans does not care about the difference between
"little sticks" and "chopsticks"? If so, then why do they have a
specific word "Essstäbchen" for chopsticks?
ekkilu> (You yourself said that Borneo is large, right?) If
ekkilu> according to you, "Dazhou" is invented to translated
ekkilu> "continent", then how come there is exactly zero continent
ekkilu> in Chinese that uses this expression in its full name?
For conciseness, as explained above.
You aren't familiar with this kind of "first abbreviating and then
compounding" approach in Western (e.g. Germanic) languages. But this
is used a lot in Chinese. Even the Japanese have learnt this
technique from us and mastered it. e.g. "department store" becomes
<depaa-to> in Japanese. Why? Because "depaatomento sutoru" would be
too clumsy.
ekkilu> As I said, you cannot hold onto a different language while
ekkilu> analyzing a given language.
Even when that other language has influenced the language being
analyzed?
ekkilu> The Chinese language has its own concepts and its own
ekkilu> history.
But it has been under European influence in the past 500 years.
ekkilu> Remember the terms Zhongmeizhou (Central America) and
ekkilu> Lading Meizhou (Latin America), as well as Ouya Dalu
ekkilu> (Eurasia) before you make more self-contradicting
ekkilu> statements.
<Zhong1> translates "Central".
<Mei3zhou1> translates "America".
What's wrong?
You tend to analyze <zhong1mei3zhou2> by splitting it into <zhon1mei3>
+ <zhou1>, and then insist that it refers to some island or continent.
+ I tell you you're wrong. This compound is formed as <zhong1> +
+ <mei3zhou1>. And <mei3zhou1> is itself a compound from the
abbreviations of <a4_mei3_li4jia1> + <da4zhou1>, which mean "America"
and "continent", respectively.
Is that clear now?
--
Lee Sau Dan 李守敦 ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: danlee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
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