Re: Continents in Chinese
- From: Tak To <takto@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 04:08:24 -0400
ekkilu@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jul 1, 9:02 pm, LEE Sau Dan <dan...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
"ekkilu" == ekkilu <ekk...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
ekkilu> Dalu Continents (Geographical/Geological)
ekkilu> Europe: Ouzhou Dalu
ekkilu> Asia: Yazhou Dalu
ekkilu> Eurasia: Ouya Dalu
ekkilu> Africa: Feizhou Dalu
ekkilu> America: Meizhou Dalu
ekkilu> North America: Beimeizhou Dalu, Beimei Dalu
ekkilu> South America: Nanmeizhou Dalu, Nanmei Dalu
ekkilu> Antarctica: Nanji Dalu, Nanjizhou Dalu
ekkilu> Australia: Aozhou Dalu
ekkilu> Oceania: Dayangzhou Dalu
Note that <zhou1> alone already represents "continent". There is no
need to repeat "da4lu4" (continent). If you do so, then you sound
"geographical/geological".
Sigh... the "repetition" here is not with "Dalu", but with "zhou". As
you can see, "zhou" can be dropped in many cases.
I see that your problem is that you hold onto English's definition of
continent while analyzing Chinese. That's a bad habit. That is exactly
the same problem of Xabi: holding onto his own definition of continent
while analyzing English's usage of the term. Look, "Zhou" is a Chinese
term. If you keep thinking in Western definition of continent, you
immediately run into troubles with terms like Zhongmeizhou (Central
America) and Lading Meizhou (Latin America).
<zhou1> written with the water radical can refer to both "continent"
or "island". These are pretty geographical.
Not really. Where is your "geographical" definition of Zhongmeizhou
(Central America) and Lading Meizhou (Latin America)?
The character ( ) obviously derives from "Zhou" ( ) without the water
radical, which has been a political-administrative term since early
dynasties. If you want to go further back, I'd agree with you that the
"Zhou" without water radical itself also comes for the derivation of
the character for river (Chuan). That one was a pictogram: little
islets in the middle of a river.
These are also with the water radical, but refer to "continents".
ekkilu> Notes: (1) Usage of "Zhou" for Singapore and Sumatra is
ekkilu> nowadays rare. Because of the small sizes of
ekkilu> Singapore/Sumatra/Borneo,
Wrong. <zhou1> with the water radical is used a lot along the coastal
regions of China to name islands. There are lots of such <zhou1>s in
Hong Kong alone.
Err... correct, but so tell me how did the Chinese come to designate a
modern concept like "continent" with the same character. Are you going
to tell me that when the Chinese used Poluozhou and Aozhou to
designate Borneo and Australia, they were already distinguishing
between islands and continents?
The Chinese have been using <zhou1> 洲 (with water radical) for
the four mythical continents(*) mentioned in Buddhist texts for ages.
So I guess when western continents were introduced, the same word
was the natural choice to be used in their translated names.
(*) Jambudvipa [閻浮提(南)贍部洲] Uttarakuru [鬱単越(北)倶盧洲]
Aparagodaniya [瞿耶尼(西)牛貨洲] Purvavideha [弗婆提(東)勝身洲]
Or is it more likely that when the Chinese intellectuals first
encountered a Western map, they realized that "continents" are
surrounded by water, and that no matter what sizes those continents
were, they (the continents) recalled exactly the traditional Chinese
mental image of a "Zhou"?
The "traditional Chinese mental image" of <zhou1> 洲 (with water
radical) includes both real islands as well as "mythic big piece of
ocean". However, this does not mean that Chinese did not distinguish
the two. It seems utmost ludicrous to ponder if island and continent
constitute one single or two separate concepts in Chinese (or in any
language). One simply cannot mark the boundary of concepts this
way.
Btw, it is probably Jesuit missionaries who first used <zhou1> 洲
(with water radical) to name the western continents. I'll bet
that they had a hard time explaining to their Chinese intellectual
friends why Eurasia is somehow considered two separate continents.
:-)
BTW, we still use <zhou1> for Borneo. (You say Borneo is small? It
is said to be the second largest island of the world, after Greenland.
This is based on the norm that Australia is too big to be called an
"island".)
Small in relative sense, especially in the sense that Borneo NEVER
appear on the list of Dazhous. It's a bit like the situation of Pluto:
is it a planet or not? It was hard to say until someone imposed a more
precise definition. Same with Borneo, or Australia. When the Chinese
named with the word "Zhou" for landmasses, they did NOT distinguish
between islands and continents. (If you think otherwise, show me a
single piece of proof that the Chinese were already distinguishing
islands continents when they named Australia as a Zhou, and that the
Zhou in Aozhou unmistakenably meant continent and not island.) That
distinction came later. Borneo and Australia are both "Zhous" in
Chinese, and I don't think people really think of one Zhou as an
island and the other Zhou as a continent. They are just Zhous.
Again, I don't see any point in determining the numeric quantity
of concepts in <zhou1> 洲 (w/ water). Note that whoever first used
<zhou1> 洲 (w/ water) for the Chinese name for Berneo probably used
the word very differently (different language/dialect, education
background, etc) from one who first translated Austrailia into
<Ao4da4li4ya4 zhou1> 澳大利亞洲.
ekkilu> often "Dazhou" is used to distinguish the big Zhous from
ekkilu> these small Zhous.
No. <Da4zhou1> would refer to "continents". I believe this term was
invented to translate the Western idea of "continent".
Come on. Name me one single continent that officially carries "Dazhou"
in its full name. Answer: None, zero, nil, nada. "Dazhou" is used only
to enumerate and classify. So, ask yourself, why is there a need to
come up with this term, if not to differentiate it from the smaller
Zhous? (You yourself said that Borneo is large, right?) If according
to you, "Dazhou" is invented to translated "continent", then how come
there is exactly zero continent in Chinese that uses this expression
in its full name?
As I said, you cannot hold onto a different language while analyzing a
given language. The Chinese language has its own concepts and its own
history. Remember the terms Zhongmeizhou (Central America) and Lading
Meizhou (Latin America), as well as Ouya Dalu (Eurasia) before you
make more self-contradicting statements.
Chinese clearly distinguishes Dalu from Zhou. You can't merge the two
concepts just because you want to.
I think it is more accurate to say that <zhou1> and <da4lu4> (and
"continent") have different but overlapping denotations. Moreover,
<zhou1> is part of the proper names.
http://www.lygtzy.gov.cn/dzzk/kpzhch/gjdl/2759.html
Translation: Why is there Zhou besides Dalu? This is because Dalu is
geological and natural-geographical concept, simply from the point of
view of geological structure and natural-geographical factors, without
considering any social factors. On the other hand, the classification
of Zhou is influenced by the history of development of humans.
Simply put: <zhou1> is part of the name of western continents.
Tak
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- References:
- Continents in Chinese
- From: ekkilu
- Re: Continents in Chinese
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