Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/

Aidan Kehoe wrote:
Ar an séú lá déag de mí Iúil, scríobh Oliver Cromm:

> * Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
>
> > On 16 Jul, 09:21, "John Atkinson" <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> <phogl...@xxxxxx> wrote...
> >> Ruud Harmsen <realemailons...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> >>>> Many people now often use a correct [T] (but not a correct /D/!).
> >>>> But if they do substitute it bu anything alse, it is by [s], not
> >>>> [t].
>
> >>> I guess we use mostly [t] and [d] here in Finland. The good old days
> >>> when "the" was rendered as "röh" are regrettably gone.
> >>
> >> Why do French speakers from France use [s] and [z], while those from
> >> Quebec use [t] and [d]?
> >
> > Not just the French but also the Spanish.
>
> Even Germans.

Well, the actual Spanish manage [θ] just fine. I’ll be paying attention next
time I talk to one for how [ð] comes out; it hasn’t stuck in my mind up to
now.

Silly me, I was thinking of Latin America and other areas where [T] is
absent. Of course, many Spanish can easily do [T].

> > I have often wondered why non-natives use [s] and [z] or [t] and [d]
> > but many natives use [f] and [v]. [s] and [z] or [t] and [d] mark you
> > as non-native but [f] and [v] might not.
>
> Presumably because to their foreigners' ears, [T] and [f] or [d] and [v]
> sound too different. We foreigners don't substitute, we approximate.
> Likewise I hear foreigners approximate German ü (/y/) as /u/ or /yu/,
> where, from a German perspective, /i/ would be the more natural
> replacement.

Approximation rather than substitution is easy to understand but a
teacher should be able to advise which is better. That it is not
typical in this case may be due to the lack of prestige of these
dialects.

Should that /yu/ be /ju/?

> I recommended /d/ several times as a better alternative to /z/ to
> Germans who couldn't do /D/, should I reconsider?

Not in my opinion. /d/ reflects some native speaker accents, whereas /z/
does not. I notice that Ossis who’ve learned English informally do go for
/d/; cf. Rammstein’s [dɪs ɪs not ə lʌv soŋ], at 2:26 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w9EksAo5hY
A good point.

My [f] suggestion was not entirely serious. Attempting a non-standard
accent may not be a good idea, if you do not fully succeed, you may
sound rather odd.

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair

.

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