Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/

On Jul 20, 12:55 pm, "John Atkinson" <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...

Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removet...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Jul 17, 8:20 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair <jwlaw...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Speakers of a dialect which uses [T D] usually notice when they
hear
the [f v] variety.

Only because the (almost inaudible) distinction is fetishized in
Britain. Most people do not (almost, _cannot_) hear the difference.

Not so. It leaped right out at me when Jamie Oliver opened his mouth
when I first watched The Naked Chef.
You're not exactly linguistically unsophisticated.

Seems to me there must be a reason why Peter claims the difference
between [T D] and [f v] is "almost inaudible" while others here
(including me) find it quite obvious.

Perhaps it's dialectal thing. For example, in Britain (and Australia) T
and D are dental fricatives, made with the tip of the tongue behind the
upper front teeth, while many (most?) Americans use interdental
fricatives, with the tip of the tongue protruding between the teeth.
They don't sound quite the same, and ISTM that the latter sounds a
little more like [f v].

I'm not convinced this is the exact explanation, but it's surely
something of this sort, and certainly not some "fetishization" that some
Americans seem to think we have -- perhaps they've watched too much My
Fair Lady.


I'm also baffled that Peter says that the difference between [T D] and
[f v] is "almost inaudible". I have been hearing [f v] substituted for
[T D] hundreds of times each and every day for the last five years by
the Poles I teach English to, and I have to say that it is still as
jarring as the first time I heard it.

For me, [f v] is as close to [T D] as [k g] is, or [m], [gl] or [str],
for that matter. That is, there is absolutely no similarity to my
American ear.

I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania populated by Polish
immigrants, so I heard English spoken with a Polish accent every day
for the first 22 years of my life. These immigrants came to the US in
the late 1800s and early 1900s. I never once heard any of them
substitute [f v] for [T D]. All of the used the Polish [t d], which is
formed with the tongue and upper teeth, and not with both upper and
lower teeth as in English. All in all, a pretty good approximation. It
is quite similar to the Italian-American [t d] that Sylvester
Stallone, Al Pacino, and Joe Pesci use.

Five years ago, I moved to Poland and have since been teaching English
to Poles. All of them start out pronouncing [T D] as [f v]. Many
Poles who teach English themselves also do so. This is a extremely
irritating mistake and I correct it every time I hear it. As a matter
of fact, I tell them that it is an "unforgivable mistake", and to use
the Polish [t d] instead.

Sean asked whether there were any American accents that use [f v] for
[T D]. Uneducated African-Americans often do, and this is considered
an extremely negative feature of their speech. Anyone who says 'wiff'
for 'with', or 'ax' for ask', is going to be at a disadvantage on the
labor market. It really raises hackles, including among better
educated African-Americans.

Dominic Bojarski






Five years ago, I moved to


.

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