Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1185106202.929670.74370@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jul 22, 4:54 am, Dominic Bojarski wrote:
Peter T. Daniels...
Dominic Bojarski...

I am replying to both Dominic's and Peter's remarks.

> > I do not mislead them at all. I tell them quite clearly that using > > the
> > POLISH [t d] is a compromise, but one that does not impair
> > comprehension as does using [f v].

> How does that "impair comprehension"?

Because:

A) it's phonemic: free/three, brief/breath, whiff/with, fin/thin, vat/
that, fink/think, furrow/thorough, fought/thought.

As opposed to tree/three, Bret(t)/breath, breed/breathe, tin/fin/thin, tinker/thinker, true/through, taut/fought/thought? If we're ignoring final voicing, then I can add whit/wit/whiff/with, though a great many Englishmen do not distinguish the first two of the set. (Or would Poles still distinguish 'true' and 'through' even if they used [t] in the latter? The first of the pair is [tSru:] in my speech.)

In the few examples among those pairs that actually do differ only in /
T/ vs. /f/, how would communication be impaired by the substitution?

Actualy though, [d] is better than [v] word-initially - no native speakers use [v] for [D] word initially.

B) most native English speakers wouldn't even dream that the student
is trying to say [T D], even those who are aware that the
substitution occurs in AAVE, in which it does not occur at the
beginning of a word.

This could only be because of an expectation that foreigners would use [t] word initially. The substitutions of [f] for [T] and [v] for non-initial [D] are frequent in all of England except the far north. For example, Welsh _Caerdydd_ has been borrowed as English _Cardiff_.

I doubt that many unexposed native speakers would readily interpret
"vose" (those), "boaff" (both), and "maff" (math) without sufficient
context. I also doubt that many of them would fail to notice it, as
you seem to think.

Oi! A lot of the English say "boaff" for 'both' and "maffs" for 'maths'. '"Math" takes some interpreting even written in context.

> > > > Anyone who says 'wiff'
> > > > for 'with', or 'ax' for ask', is going to be at a disadvantage on > > > > the
> > > > labor market.

'Ask' is clearly a risky word. In a few places the RP pronunciation ([A:sk]) could get you stood up against a wall when the revolution comes. 'Ax' just strikes me as quaint, whereas I judge [{sk] negatively.

E) trying to pronounce the vowel in "bird", "herd", "heard", "curd"
and "word" differently. They are convinced that they must be
different, since we spell them differently.

You make them sound as weird as Scotsmen. (They're well tolerated in England, at least for now.) I hope they use the same vowel in "word"and "curd".

F) failing to complete n, m, l, and w at the end of a word. Polish
pronunciation stops far short of the portion of the sound that
English speakers depend on for recognition. We just hear "something"
that we cannot interpret.

I don't know what you mean by "complete" the sounds. American English
is chock-full of "unreleased" final consonants.

I'm not sure how easy it is to rearrange the sounds, but I've seen a report that reversing the three phones of 'mum' produces a sound that is heard by English speakers as 'mump'. One problem is that a short final [m] may be interpreted as [mp_}] (X-SAMPA - couldn't find Kirshenbaum symobl) simply because English does have unreleased final consonants.

G) pronouncing silent letters as in "half", "island", "listen", "comb"
and "bought". They can't believe that they are truly silent, and that
it is not more "correct" to pronounce them.

There seem to be quite a few Americans who are convinced that 'half' is [hA:lf].

When the [f v] substitution is combined with these other problems, it
is often impossible to figure out whether a Pole is trying to say
"thirty", "thirteen", "forty" or "fourteen".

Isn't the notion of movable, i.e. phonemic, stress, among the very
first things you should have taught in the Polish classroom?

Perhaps the stress on them has moved-:) The Concise Oxford Dictionary 4th Edition (1951) gives final stress, Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary New Edition with Extended Supplement (1964 - but perhaps 1959 for the main body) gives stress in either place, as does the Oxford Dictionary of Englsih Etymology (1966, with corrections in 1969) - it says 'variable'. Initial stress is very common in Britain, and people frequently resort to 'three-oh' to make it clear that 'thirty' is meant.

Richard.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: primeval
    ... Do English speakers make a difference in pronunciation between ... I pronounce 'primeval' with the stress on the second syllable. ... 'prime evil' with equal stress on the first two syllables. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: primeval
    ... Do English speakers make a difference in pronunciation between ... I pronounce 'primeval' with the stress on the second syllable. ... 'prime evil' with equal stress on the first two syllables. ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: "Im coffee and hes espresso." -- facially nonsensical
    ... >> You mean where Russian speakers place the stress, or where English speakers ... Czech stress is always ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: primeval
    ... Do English speakers make a difference in pronunciation between ... I pronounce 'primeval' with the stress on the second syllable. ... Apart from preferring 'two first syllables' that is just the way for me ...
    (alt.usage.english)
  • Re: Arabica
    ... Dee Dee wrote: ... might sound as it does in 'farther', ... The Welsh English speakers don't speak ..they probably ... Cea from Kona where coffee harvesting has begun ...
    (alt.coffee)
Loading