Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/

On 22 Jul, 22:58, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jul 22, 2:34 pm, Seán O'Leathlóbhair <jwlaw...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On Jul 22, 5:42 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jul 22, 11:00 am, Seán O'Leathlóbhair <jwlaw...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jul 22, 5:44 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Cockney is regarded as "British" and hence prestigious in the US.

Quaint maybe but I am not so sure about prestigious. Next time in the
States, I will turn on my London / South East Essex accent and see how
it goes down.

Wouldn't those who cared about the prestige of an accent know the lack
of prestige of Cockney in its homeland?

Why would they?

Well those who care about the prestige of things (accents, cars, etc)
often know their subject well and not only within their own country.
For example, I expect that most Americans could name many prestige
European as well as American car manufacturers.

Precisely. "Those who care." Americans don't care about the "prestige"
of foreign brands, but about the quality: Americans generally
recognize that Ferrari cars are junk, even though the name is highly
"prestigious."

Odd that any time I have rented a car in the US, one of the categories
offered to me was "prestige". Also, I have seen plenty of "prestige"
car dealers when I have been in the US. I have even seen Ferraris.
What did Richard Gere drive in the movie Pretty Woman? Why did he
select that car? If Americans only cared about the quality of their
cars, they would all be driving Japanese cars. Read some consumer
surveys, from any objective point of view, Japanese cars top the
lists.

How would they know that (say) Mrs Slocum and Miss Brahms represent
different accents? They both sound "British."

It is a long since I have seen that programme andI never liked it so I
don't recall how either character sounded. I will accept that the
difference in their accents may not have been appreciated by many
Americans.

How would they know that Miss Brahms is socially disadvantaged by her
accent?

Well you are American and appear to know.

Only because (as I mentioned a couple of days ago) I've just seen a
disk of DVD extras pointing out that the Miss Brahms actress (is it
Wendy Richards?) has had a successful career _despite_ her Cockney
accent, with 10 years as Miss Brahms and, since then, some 15 years on
Eastenders. I never noticed a systematic distinction among any of the
"Being Served?" characters except Mr Harmon, the janitor-type who
appeared in many but not all episodes.

Well Reinhold seems to think that awareness of Cockney is common. Two
Americans tell me very different things - who shall I believe? I will
be in a conference call with several Americans on Thursday. If there
is time for some small talk, I will see what they know of Cockney.

They are probably enough
clues to enable many others to figure it out. Is it shown on American
TV? If so, enough peoplemust appreciate it to make it worthwhile for
a network to show it. Maybe more than here since I don't recall
seeing it in the listings for a long time.

It's never been off the air.

US or UK? I have not noticed it here for a long time but I only have
the free channels. If it were on pay TV, I would not notice. I
suppose that it could have been on free TV and I did not notice since
I would certainly not choose to watch it but I would have expected a
"oh no, are they still showing that?" reaction that would have stuck
in my mind. Maybe this series is more popular in the US because of
stereotypical views of the Brits. Snobbery and class prejudice is
real enough here but far less prevalent than you seem to think.
Things are changing here. I last saw that programme when I was a
child (my father liked it). That was long time ago and it was dated
then. Stop watching these programmes and come for another visit and
you may get a more accurate view of modern Britain. Skip Oxford and
Cambridge as they are not typical.

Nonetheless, Cockney must surely be the most famous of non-standard
British accents and I would have thought that a large number of
Americans would have heard of it.

Why?

As I say above, Reinhold says that many Americans are aware.

British novels and movies don't go out of their way to say, "This
character talks Cockney, so you should consider him/her lower class/
unreliable/evil/whatever." (In fact, it's been noted that in American
historical epics, the bad guys -- the Roman nobles, say -- talk
English and the good guys talk American. (Spartacus is only the best-
known example, but it's a spectacular one.) And they ain't talkin'
Cockney.

I had noticed that you like to cast Brits as bad guys. Does that fit
with your claim that all British accents are prestigious in the US?
Just a sec, I have just noticed an interesting contradiction. You
say: "Cockney is regarded as British and hence prestigious in the US"
and also "Americans don't care about the prestige of foreign brands".
One moment they care about prestige and another moment they don't.

The most famous actor with a Cockney background, Michael Caine, almost
never appears in a film talking Cockney, and when he does (not that
the American audience would notice a difference), the British
reviewers make a big deal about it.

I thought that Michael Caine only had one accent. I recognise him
easily even if I can only hear.

The _one_ salient reference I ever saw was, many many years ago, in a
documentary about the attempt to make a movie of _Quo Vadis_ with
Charles Laughton as Nero(?) and they strung together all the surviving
rushes of the one or two scenes that had been filmed, Laughton says a
line and immediately stops himself and disgustedly says, "Pure
Cockney!" and does the line again in his preferred accent.

--
Seán Ó Leathlóbhair

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/
    ... I will turn on my London / South East Essex accent and see how ... I expect that most Americans could name many prestige ... has had a successful career _despite_ her Cockney ...
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  • Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/
    ... I will turn on my London / South East Essex accent and see how ... Well those who care about the prestige of things ... European as well as American car manufacturers. ... has had a successful career _despite_ her Cockney ...
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  • Re: Thanks for all the help!
    ... All Americans I have spoken to think the fake Cockney accent of Dick Van Dyke in his famous Chimney Sweep role was really quite good and sounded totally genuine, whereas in fact most Englishman would consider it to be one of the most unbelievably crap fake accents they had ever heard. ...
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  • Re: Cockney is prestigious? [Was: Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/]
    ... Cockney is actually too ... There's a reason why Michael Caine was always popular with Americans -- ... Americans like that of a regular Nigel, in sharp contrast to an RP accent. ... of features which have become common in speech across south-eastern ...
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  • Re: Subtitutes for English /T/ and /D/
    ... Well those who care about the prestige of things (accents, cars, etc) ... I expect that most Americans could name many prestige ... Cockney must surely be the most famous of non-standard ...
    (sci.lang)