Re: Some questions about Swedish language

phoglund@xxxxxx skreiv:

On Oct 26, 12:05 am, Trond Engen <trond...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

A R:nen skreiv:

"Carnby" <linnetsNOS...@xxxxxxxxxx> writes:

[...]". I have some problems withthe word "torde" [...]

(What's your problem with "torde", it's a normal (if a bit antiquated) construction for marking slight uncertainty about what is being told? [...])

Almost needless to say, it's used the same way in Norwegian. However, in Norwegian the main meaning of the verb is "dare".

In Swedish, "töra" is not used in that way, but the deponent verb
"töras" is.

In the meaning "dare" it's also present in some dialects in an
originally reflexive form with -s. [...]

Well, at least the deponent verb form "töras" is used in Swedish in
the meaning "to dare": töras, törs, tordes, torts (although I would
myself prefer the Low German import våga, and I feel very insecure about actually using "tordes" and "torts"). Modern Icelandic has þora = to dare and þurfa = to need, which are quite distinct.

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Hellquist held that although these verbs are distinct, some forms of 'töra' are contaminated. Or changed in analogy. That's how I read him, anyway.

The reason why I didn't use the word 'deponent' for the s-form is that I wasn't sure if it's appropriate. I don't think the verb 'töras' ever was passive. It's rather an old reflexive. "Jag törs icke gå där" ~ "I don't risk myself going there". Thinking again, it may still be classified as a deponent verb, but a deponent reflexive rather than a deponent passive.

It's often said that the Scandinavian languages developed a passive voice from the clitic <-s(t)> < <-sk> < the reflexive pronoun <sik>. That's correct, of course, but also a bit too simple. With a singular subject it's generally passive, but in the plural it's often reciprocal: "Vi ses!" = "We'll see eachother!" (= "See you!"); "Vi møttes i baren" = "We met (eachother) in the bar". The reciprocal meaning is visible also in the deponent (!) verb 'slåss' "fight". "Vi slåss" = "We fight (eachother)" -> "Jeg slåss" = "I fight".

This reflexive (-> reciprocal) -> passive -> deponent development is interesting but I struggle to grasp the details of it. Part of the history are the old verbs like <tykkje> "think", which seem to take all sorts of cases. Here are some glimpses of history, stolen from around the web:

"Hví eru o,ndótt
augu Freyju?
Þikki mér ór augum
eldr um brenna."
(Þrymskviða)

"Ekki hefk með flimtun farit,
fullvel ættak til þess varit
(yrkja kann ek vánu verr)
vita þykkisk þat maðrinn hverr."
(Málsháttakvæði)

"Thi haffuer ieg nw føghet meg effter eder willie, oc begæring oc will nw foregiffue huess meg tycker got at wære, ij thenne handell, [...]"
(Huore krancke [...] aff broder Paulo Helie 1528)

"Han tykkjest meg lik gudan’ å vera
mannen der som sit rett yverfor deg,
tett ved, og til den ovsøte røysti
lyttar han løynsamt"
(Sapfo, umset av Per Esben Svelstad (2007))

--
Trond Engen
- drowning in data
.

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