Re: G. Starostin's and Lubotsky's Proto-Illyrian confabulation: Desiccated Sahara

On Dec 2, 3:45 pm, lorad...@xxxxxx wrote:
First off, I'd like to thankyou for bringing a lot of potential
cognates to discuss.
I can offer no support for your with 'Sur-Hor', or 'Hor-Gon' basis
conjectures, but I do enjoy your cognate assemblages, and I do
appreciate your aptittude for presenting them.

Thanks.

On Dec 2, 3:16 am, "Dušan Vukotic" <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

(s)kel-3
English meaning: to dry out Deutsche Übersetzung: “austrocknen,
dörren”
Material: Gk. σκέλλω “trockne from, desiccate “ (trans., Fut. σκελω,
Aor. ἔσκηλα; intr. Aor. ἔσκλην, perf. ἔσκληκα), σκελετός
“ausgetrocknet”, m. ‘skelett”, n. “Mumie”, σκληρός “dry, hard, rough,
unbeugsam”, σκελιφρός “ausgetrocknet, abgemagert”, σκληφρός ‘small and
agile”, ἀ-σκελής 1. “ohneWiderstandskraft” (without σκληρότης); 2.
“unablässig, of rage,
fury, of Weinen” (eig. “unversieglich”); περι-σκελής “very dry,
brittle, hartnäckig”, περι-σκέλεια f. “Hartnäckigkeit”;
Maybe Alb. (skol-) hollë “lean, thin” common Alb. sk- > h- phonetic
mutatIon.

This looks to be a good guess.

Swe. skäll “lean, thin, fade, säuerlich”, nd. schal “dry, arid”,
M.L.G. M.H.G. schal ‘schal from taste; trũb, unclear”, schaln “trũb
become”, M.Eng. schalowe ‘schal, faint, languid, seicht”, Eng. shallow
(also probably O.E. sceald ‘seicht, not deep”, nd. scholl ‘seichtes
water”)

The authors have confused themselves with a similar but different
root, here...
But what the hey.. most OE folks are also unaware.

; without anlaut. s-: O.Ice. hall-ǣri “Mißjahr”, O.E. hall-
heort “erschrocken”; M.H.G. hel (-ll-) “weak”, hellec “ tired “, Ger.
hellig “faint, languid, erschöpft from thirst “, M.H.G. hellegen
“exhaust, behelligen”, nd. hal “dry, lean “; lengthened grade (?) nd.
hül, Dutch haal “dry”, M.Du. hael “ausgetrocknet, arid, schal”; Dan.
dial. hælm ‘still”, Dan. helme “cease” (“*languish”, originally vor
Hitze or thirst); Ltv. kàlss “ lean “, kàlstu, kàlst “vertrocknen,
wilt”, kàltêt “dry”.
References: WP. II 597.
Page(s): 927
____________________________________________________
In order to uderstand the above (s)kel-3 root it is necessary to start
from the primeval Sur-Hor basis, wherefrom we have the Serbo-Slavic
words sagoreti, suša (from sušara <= suhara driers; an appliance that
removes moisture; cf. Sahara Desert);

Extremely unlikely, imo.
Just start with the 'older' Baltic 'sausa' meaning 'dry'.

Older? I do not understand, what criterions are you using to determine
"whose" word is more aged? Sausa is a counterpart word to Serbian
sushiti and I do not see how anyone can talk about their mutual
"aging" relation. Maybe you have certain orienting "milestones", but
until this moment I have not seen that you had already shown any of
similar "historic signs" on the long road of language evolution.

or we can begin with the Sur-Gon
ur-basis, the one which gave birth to the IE words for the sun

No it didn't.

(Serb.
sunce /from sur-gne => su-r-nke => sunke/, Skt. surya, Ger. Sonne; cf.
Serb. Zornica/Zornjača Venus; the morning star). Serbian vocabulary
contains the word skelet (skeleton), which is probabaly a borrowing
from Greek (σκελετός), although there are a lot of Serbian words which
could be a source of that noun: adjectives usukan (thin, flimsy),
isušen (dried out), usahlo (dried up), uzak (small. narrow), verbs
usukati se (usukalo se it thined, it lost its weight, it twisted),
usahnuti (lose moisture, dry up), osušilo se (it dried up), iskaliti
(wreak, vent the anger; from suknuti disgorge the fire), izguliti/
zguliti (take skin off fruit, vegetable, animal; remove outside layer
of something).

No. "Serbian words which could be a source of that noun ( IE words for
the sun)"..
is a fantasy. Serbian is a late creation as is all of Slavic. Germanic
including English is too, for that matter. Skt. 'surya', and Baltic
'surstet' predate Slavic.

Would you mind stopping to talk about "parent" and "child" languages
if you hadn't got evidences to to offer to corroborate your
assumption.

And you are confusing root words again:
Grouped by root, your Serbian words should appear as:

'usukan (thin, flimsy)'
'usukati se (usukalo se it thined, it lost its weight, it twisted)'

' isušen (dried out)'

'uzak (small. narrow), '

'usahnuti (lose moisture, dry up)'

'osušilo se (it dried up)' [possibly]
' usahlo (dried up)'

'iskaliti (wreak, vent the anger; from suknuti disgorge the fire)'

'izguliti/ zguliti (take skin off fruit, vegetable, animal; remove
outside layer
of something).'

...each with a related meaning but *different* root source. (except
for 'uzak' and 'izguliti' which shouldn't be listed here with the
rest)

Compare Serb. adjective susheno (dried) and suzheno (narrowed; Serb.
uzak comes from suzheno => uzano /narrow/ => uzak/usko /narrow/); I
think it would be unnecessary to say agian that the process of drying
is logically connected to the process of size reduction or narrowing.
As for the verb izguliti, your objection might be correct, although I
still believe that it must be somehow related to the above iskaliti;
at the moment I am not able to align this word (izguliti) logically.

Let us now compare the Greek words ἰσχνωσις (drying up) ,
ψυγμός , ψύχω (to breathe, blow) and ψύκτρα (drying-place) and let
us try to understand that these Greek words also were born from the
same bases as above-mentioned Serbian; i.e. from Sur-Hor and Sur-Gon
basis (Greek ψύκτρα /drying-place/, Latin siccarius /keeping dry/,
Serbian sagoreti /burn down/, sušara /drying-place/). The Greek word
ξηραντικός (causing to dry up) could be compared to Serbian žarenje
(roasting, baking); both words originated from the Sur-Gon basis.

Dushan.. why do you write mish-mashes?
Is this your idea of an extended joke?

Be precise, what you find unclear in the above paragraph. Probably
ψύχω?

English shrink (OE scrincan) is another evidence that Sur-Gon (the
sun) is the cause of any withering (desiccating) process. I have no
doubt that the wise guys on sci. lang will be able to connect shrink
with the other English words as short, shirt, skirt.

OE 'scrincan' has an entirely different root source.. not related to
withering.. but to 'collapse'. (and no, not to your below listed
interpretation of Lat. 'co/n/llabo collapse. fall down' either) (and
not Latin 'sicco' either)

Yeah! OE scrincan means "to wither away, dry up, shrivel".

If some one still
has a problem to grasp the general idea of language development I will
try to help him by a few additonal words: Eng. scura, Greek σκωρία
(clinker, slag, scura), Serb. zgura (scura, slag, clincer); follow the
logical array: Serbian izgoreti/sagoreti (burn down), scoreti
(encrust), skratiti (shorten).

What does slag have to do with the other words thaat you have mashed
together?

Not the word 'slag' but 'scura' (Serbian zgura; from izgoreti burn
down).

DV

Finally, it is possible that Albanian hollë belongs to the same group
of of Sur-Gon-Bel words, similar to Serbian skobeljati se (fall down;
Lat. co/n/llabo (collapse. fall down; cf. Serbian sklupčati se shrink,
klupko/kluvak/klobuk ball, hank); hence Serbian skupiti se (shrink,
collapse).
DV

Impossible stuff.

Look.. the closest relationship relatationship for Alb. (skol-) hollë
“lean, thin” is to that of some original root such as 'skall' or
'kall' (which I already think I know).

Swe. skäll, Ltv. kàltêt, Latin 'siccus', and your own Serbian
'iskaliti (wreak, vent the anger; from suknuti disgorge the fire)' and
'usahlo (dried up)'.. should have guided you correctly.

.

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