Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?

On Jan 11, 2:42 am, richard01 <richardparke...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 9 Jan, 08:12, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jan 9, 4:36 am, richard01 <richardparke...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 8 Jan, 13:42, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:> On Jan 8, 12:15 pm, richard01 <richardparke...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sure, and the availability of such devices continues even when people
have readymade numerals for these numbers.

Ross Clark

I'm preparing to map the number systems of Vanuatu/NC, because it's a
discrete area, and I have as much data as (it seems) I'm going to
get.

This is my own draft note for mapping purposes, so some ?s appear here
and there. And it needs a bit more checking.

As I see it, there are sequential 'waves' of changes (Please excuse me
if I call a 'retention' of a number concept from a putative proto-
language an 'introduction'). The sequence is from oldest to newest (in
my opinion).

--------------------------------------------
1) Introduction of *sa-puluq - as a word for 10, but not necessarily
carrying a full decimal decade system with it - I have very little
data on higher numbers, but some Vanuatu languages that use *sa-puluq
still keep '1 man' for 20 (implying they still maintain, or originally
had, a vigesimal decade base) - see below.

Into all languages north of Epi-Efate with just a few exceptions: Hiw
(tamui), Lakona (gapra), Seke (sembrenok), Sakao (gol-te ?),
Lorediakarkar (sithan ?), Big Nambas (great name!! - inal, senal ?) SE
Ambrym (hexalu ?),

But none south of a line separating Epi-Efate from the north, except
Bieria/Vovo in Epi.
Paamese, all Epi (exc Bieria/Vovo), Efate, Erromanga - 2-5
Tanna, Aneityum ?, Orowe (NC) - 5-5
Loyalty Is, New Caledonia (exc Orowe) - 2-something

--------------------------------------------
2) *lima as a stand-alone monomorpheme for 5 (without an implicit
(usually tave- or teve- in N Vanuatu, suo- or suk- in Erromanga,
keri-, kati- in Tanna) 1 prefix - (ie 1-hand for 5, vs hand 2 for 10).
The introduced word is often different from the local name for hand/
arm - that is, *lima, alone, has become a real monomorphemic numeral
word.

*lima (solo) bypassed Torres and Banks Is completely - then only:
Ambae, Pentecost, Santo, Efate - All
Malekula - All except Labo/Nindi and Nasarian (-i-salome, se-lme)

None south of Efate, except for 'nim' in Nelemwa, Yuaga, Jawe, Nemi,
Fwai, Pije, and Hmwaverke in NC.

--------------------------------------------
3) Consensus *PAn 6-9 in lieu of 5+ constructions:

Bypassed Torres and Banks Is completely - then no further than:

(Santo)
NW Penisula - Valpei, Vunapu, Piamatsina, Nokuku, Tasmate, Offshore
southern islands - Araki, Aore, Tutuba, Malo
(Malekula - all on the NE cape) Mporotovo, Vao, Nese, Atchin/Uripiv,
Mae
(Ambae) Both
(Pentecost) Hano only

- ie there are two separate groupings in North Vanuatu - one based
around NW Santo, and one around S Santo islands, adjacent bit of
Malekula, Ambae, and Hano only on Pentecost.

None south of Malekula, again with one exception, Bieria/Vovo. (SIL
treats Vovo as a dialect of Bieria (Epi), but Tryon placed Vovo in NW
Malekula near Mporotovo, where its numbering system certainly fits
better. Bieria itself has a standard 'Epi' numbering system. Someone´s
boobed somewhere).
--------------------------------------------

Indeed the language/dialect names are endlessly confusing. It appears
that there are two villages by the name of Vovo, one on Epi and one on
north Malakula. The language name "Vovo" seems to be reserved for the
latter, while the former is "Bieria". The confusion is heightened by
Tryon's listing the Epi village as "Vovo" on p.92, but as "Vowa" on
the map and throughout the word lists.

Higher decades - not sure what happened, because most published
lexicons (and the main source for Vanuatu is Tryon, 1976) don't go
further than 10.

But:
proto-Oceanic 20 = *rua-na-puluq

- the first instance (west of New Guinea) (bear in mind I have very
few examples) that I can find of that word order is in Tetun, Flores -
ruanulu, and then that word order runs up, pretty much as standard, to
the 'later' languages in Formosa.

- from Maluku eastwards , the word order reverses (Alune - butu lua
10-2).

There's a complex situation around the Bismarcks, with both word-
orders mixed, but the Solomons have 2-10.

In the Vanuatu languages where I have data on 20, the word order is
always 10-2 (ie *sa-puluq - *rua) or a special word meaning, usually,
'man' or 'person'. (Examples: Atchin - sangawul mowil e-ru (1x10-x-2),
Paamese - hanuu mau, Labo/Nindi - morlala, Whitesands - ieramim kiu
kuaka (whole person).

In Polynesia and the Outliers, there's another mix-up, with some using
a special 20 word 'tekau' and others using real decades (Fiji (Bau) -
rua sagavulu - this is, literally translated, 2x1x10, but still word-
order 2-10).

The fact that Rapanui has 'ka rua te aanghuru' (x-2-x-&*puluq) while
the Maori had 'tekau' (until the whiteys arrived) is what persuades me
that Rapanui was settled after NZ.

?? Maori also has ngahuru, the old word for ten. What is said to have
happened under European influence (for reasons somewhat unclear to me)
is that tekau shifted its meaning from 20 to 10.

The different word order in Vanuatu points to something quite
linguistically basic, and different, that I just don't (yet)
understand.

The fact that some languages take *sa-puluq (1x10) as a whole word,
and then use it to make, as in Fiji, rua sagavulu, is what persuades
me that *sa - puluq diffused from somewhere to the west as 1 x group
of ten, and was adopted, wholesale, as a simple word for ten.

People are quite capable of such reanalyses even with words they have
had all along.

There ain't nothing wrong with diffusion, if you don't go the whole
hog, and try to push it back to Babylon (one way) or Tiahuanaco (the
other).

Yes, but you've now got three extra migrations for no purpose other
than bringing in some new numerals (even teaching people to use *lima
by itself, for goodness sake!). Still seems unnecessary to me.

Ross Clark
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?
    ... but some Vanuatu languages that use *sa-puluq ... Into all languages north of Epi-Efate with just a few exceptions: ... Paamese, all Epi (exc Bieria/Vovo), Efate, Erromanga - 2-5 ... few examples) that I can find of that word order is in Tetun, ...
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  • Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?
    ... but some Vanuatu languages that use *sa-puluq ... Into all languages north of Epi-Efate with just a few exceptions: ... Paamese, all Epi (exc Bieria/Vovo), Efate, Erromanga - 2-5 ... few examples) that I can find of that word order is in Tetun, ...
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  • Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?
    ... but some Vanuatu languages that use *sa-puluq ... Into all languages north of Epi-Efate with just a few exceptions: ... Paamese, all Epi (exc Bieria/Vovo), Efate, Erromanga - 2-5 ... few examples) that I can find of that word order is in Tetun, ...
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  • Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?
    ... but some Vanuatu languages that use *sa-puluq ... Into all languages north of Epi-Efate with just a few exceptions: ... Paamese, all Epi (exc Bieria/Vovo), Efate, Erromanga - 2-5 ... few examples) that I can find of that word order is in Tetun, ...
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  • Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?
    ... but some Vanuatu languages that use *sa-puluq ... Into all languages north of Epi-Efate with just a few exceptions: ... Paamese, all Epi (exc Bieria/Vovo), Efate, Erromanga - 2-5 ... few examples) that I can find of that word order is in Tetun, ...
    (sci.lang)