Re: Do Eskimos count like New Guineans?

On 12 Jan, 06:47, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jan 12, 5:06 am, richard01 <richardparke...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


[...]

That is what I am trying to do, with just one set of related words, in
each language. It's no Grand, pre-conceived Theory

Well, it's one big and apparently immovable pre-conceived assumption.

No, it's not. It's gone from the germ of an idea, reinforced by every
bit of evidence that I've found since.

But it's the one immovable, in that you won't consider the
alternative.

well you can either consider that numbering systems evolved, using
widespread and observable rules, or you can believe that a perfect
abstract system existed fully blown in *PAn and *POc and that any
differences from that 'perfect state' must therefore be new, but
regressive, inventions.

So how did certain groups newly invent exactly the same counting
method as Eskimos did? Why do certain Vanuatu groups still count their
toes between 10 and 20?

Are they remarkably coincidental new inventions, or are they relicts
of older systems, as I believe? If you look at numbering systems
between different language phyla, as in the very many New Guinea
languages (including some Austronesian ones) the very same counting
methods come up, again and again. Almost 50% of all Oceanic languages
use the 5+1,5+2 system for 6-9.

Examples of toe-counting from 10-20:
SE Ambrym (Vanuatu)
11= tei a le (1 on leg)
15= le tei bus (leg 1 finishes)
20= hanu tap (whole person) (No intervening number data)

Takia (New Britain)
11= nien sekun tasek (leg * 1)
15= No data, but 14 = nien sekun iwewo (leg * 4)
20= nien enenda imat (legs finished - not my translation, and I think
it may be wrong)

The usual explanation for Takia-type systems is that they arose
through contact with Papuans. In Vanuatu, according to current
thinking, there was no Papuan substratum.
There are sufficient differences in the methods of verbalising the
numerals to infer that the process happened separately in different
areas.

I know full well that higher numerals can be borrowed. On my island,
the counting numerals come partly Austronesian, Spanish, and
English.The Spanish seis=6 is sais (rhymes with ice) here and diez= 10
is jeys (rhymes with ace)

What I suggest is that the same process happened between Austronesian
languages. Phonetically, though, the adopted words would take on the
idiosyncracies of each individual language.
Quote: John Lynch "Neve'ei even shows nV- on relatively recent loans
(e.g., nibima 'chili' < Bislama pima < French piment)".
If you were expecting to find reflections of Poc anyway, then such
numeral word borrowings would be quite invisible in a conventional
analysis.

regards

Richard







.

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