Re: AS gebúr; bauer; neighbour

lorad474@xxxxxx skreiv:

On Mar 11, 4:35 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Brian M. Scott skreiv:

[<Craoibhi...@xxxxxxxxx>:]

On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Could anyone [...] explain [...] what the words neighbour, Ger. Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in common?

<Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
(Balto-)Slavic.

[...]

This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention ON/OIc <salr> "hall" m. and <sel> n. "cottage", OE <sele> and <sæl> n., etc., find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell that it's not possible to sort out if it's an original i-, a- or s-stem. They cite Balt. <sala> f. "village" and Lat. <solum> "soil" as cognates, leading back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to take Slav. <selo> < *sed-lo-. They recount, but reject, the objection that the semantic connection between the Germanic and
Baltic words is thin. For some reason they don't mention any semantic problem with Lat. <solum>.

Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective pair? Bjorvand (1994) doesn't touch this word, but trying to follow his example, I think that a neuter *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a non-individualizing collective feminine plural *sal(j)az.

Very nice synthesis... 'salasa' means 'a collection'; Latv. ..
Perhaps the origin of 'sala' (village).

If, and this is a big if, 'salasa' is related, I'd expect it to be a fairly recent singular based on 'sala' or on the collective plural *salas "takings, possessions". Is -sa to a feminine or -a to a plural a regular derivational ending?

This would logically mean "village" in the same way as <engjar> fpl. "grassland" is derived from <engi> ns. "piece of land". (The feminine plural of <sel>, <seljar>, is known from toponyms, as are many other feminine plurals of neuters.) The dominant forms of this feminine plural are equal to the masculine and might in turn have yielded an analogous mascculine <salr>. This is not as far-fetched as it may sound, since it happened to several words, e.g. <óss> "rivermouth", which has been a masculine in Ins. Scsnd. and W. Norw. for a long time. (Bjorvand, BTW, takes Lat. <o:ra> f. "rim, coast" as a creation from the collective feminine plural of <o:s> "mouth".) Baltic has lost the neuter and would have replaced the old neuter singulars with secondary feminines.

Why this concern over gender anyway?
The roots are of greater concern..

Because disturbing details have to be explained. Now the difference in gender and semantics between the Germanic and Baltic forms seemed to fit the hypothesis of the collective feminine plural. If so, the disturbing differences are explained and entirely regular, and both the common etymology and the hypothesis are strengthened.

'Osa' is Latv. for 'river mouth', also.
And also looks to be related to the Latin 'ostia'.

Yes, that's part of the explanation. I was too short.

The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".

'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.

I prefer "taking" > "possession" > "dwelling", "dwellings" > "village" and, perhaps, "possessions" > "collection".

think one would need a verbal noun *sVl- "taking" > "farmland", perhaps surviving in Lat. <solum>, and take the a-stems as derivations meaning something like "house on farmland". But now I'm far out.

It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I suppose it can be done, but I don't know how.

Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..

Not just like that, anyway. Baltic 'sala' is quite likely due to the Baltic replacement of neuters with secondary feminines, and the stem vowel is wrong, so, at best, it's an independent formation from the same verbal root. Or so it seems to me. More disturbing details.

--
Trond Engen
- men Sala, Sala Palmer, Sala Palmer er pen, har alltid vært feminin
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: AS =?UTF-8?B?Z2Viw7pyOyBiYXVlcjsgbmVpZ2hib3Vy?=
    ... Germanic into Slavic, ... Bjorvand doesn't touch this word, but trying to follow his example, I think that a neuter *sala- "dwelling" could yield a non-individualizing collective feminine plural *salaz. ... , is known from toponyms, as are many other feminine plurals of neuters.) The dominant forms of this feminine plural are equal to the masculine and might in turn have yielded an analogous mascculine. ...
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  • =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_AS_geb=FAr=3B_bauer=3B_neighbour?=
    ... the root is restricted to Gmc. ... n., etc., find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell ... many other feminine plurals of neuters.) ... Because disturbing details have to be explained. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_AS_geb=FAr=3B_bauer=3B_neighbour?=
    ... the root is restricted to Gmc. ... n., etc., find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell ... many other feminine plurals of neuters.) ... Because disturbing details have to be explained. ...
    (sci.lang)