Re: AS gebúr; bauer; neighbour

On Mar 18, 1:55 am, Trond Engen <trond...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
lorad...@xxxxxx skreiv:

On Mar 11, 4:35 pm, Trond Engen <trond...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Brian M. Scott skreiv:
[<Craoibhi...@xxxxxxxxx>:]
On Mar 11, 7:03 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Could anyone [...] explain [...] what the words neighbour, Ger.
Bauer and Serb. seljak (peasant) have in common?

<Seljak> is obviously a derivative of <selo> 'soil, hamlet,
village', which is cognate with OIc <salr> 'room, hall'. So
far as I know, the root is restricted to Gmc. and
(Balto-)Slavic.

[...]

This is rather messy, apparently. Bjorvand and Lindeman mention
ON/OIc <salr> "hall" m. and <sel> n. "cottage", OE <sele> and <sæl>
n., etc., find a common meaning "room, single building", and tell
that it's not possible to sort out if it's an original i-, a- or
s-stem. They cite Balt. <sala> f. "village" and Lat. <solum> "soil"
as cognates, leading back to IE *sel- "settlement", but prefer to
take Slav. <selo> < *sed-lo-. They recount, but reject, the
objection that the semantic connection between the Germanic and
Baltic words is thin. For some reason they don't mention any
semantic problem with Lat. <solum>.

Could this be an old neuter singular/femine collective pair?
Bjorvand (1994) doesn't touch this word, but trying to follow his
example, I think that a neuter *sal(j)a- "dwelling" could yield a
non-individualizing collective feminine plural *sal(j)az.

Very nice synthesis... 'salasa' means 'a collection'; Latv. ..
Perhaps the origin of 'sala' (village).

If, and this is a big if, 'salasa' is related, I'd expect it to be a
fairly recent singular based on 'sala' or on the collective plural
*salas "takings, possessions". Is -sa to a feminine or -a to a plural a
regular derivational ending?

Nominative sing.feminine for 'sala'.
Same for 'salasa'.. although the related 'salashnas' is atypical
('as').

This would logically mean "village" in the same way as <engjar> fpl.
"grassland" is derived from <engi> ns. "piece of land". (The
feminine plural of <sel>, <seljar>, is known from toponyms, as are
many other feminine plurals of neuters.) The dominant forms of this
feminine plural are equal to the masculine and might in turn have
yielded an analogous mascculine <salr>. This is not as far-fetched
as it may sound, since it happened to several words, e.g. <óss>
"rivermouth", which has been a masculine in Ins. Scsnd. and W. Norw.
for a long time. (Bjorvand, BTW, takes Lat. <o:ra> f. "rim, coast"
as a creation from the collective feminine plural of <o:s> "mouth".)
Baltic has lost the neuter and would have replaced the old neuter
singulars with secondary feminines.

Why this concern over gender anyway?
The roots are of greater concern..

Because disturbing details have to be explained. Now the difference in
gender and semantics between the Germanic and Baltic forms seemed to fit
the hypothesis of the collective feminine plural. If so, the disturbing
differences are explained and entirely regular, and both the common
etymology and the hypothesis are strengthened.

'Osa' is Latv. for 'river mouth', also.
And also looks to be related to the Latin 'ostia'.

Yes, that's part of the explanation. I was too short.

The neuter *sal(j)a- could possibly be derived from *sel- "take".

'To collect'... as I indicated. But as a 'collection/village'.

I prefer "taking" > "possession" > "dwelling", "dwellings" > "village"
and, perhaps, "possessions" > "collection".

'Gather' is the most I can offer.

think one would need a verbal noun *sVl- "taking" > "farmland",
perhaps surviving in Lat. <solum>, and take the a-stems as
derivations meaning something like "house on farmland". But now I'm
far out.

It would be nice to have Slavic <selo> fit into all this, and I
suppose it can be done, but I don't know how.

Well.. The most likely is Baltic 'sala'.. as indicated above..

Not just like that, anyway. Baltic 'sala' is quite likely due to the
Baltic replacement of neuters with secondary feminines, and the stem
vowel is wrong, so, at best, it's an independent formation from the same
verbal root. Or so it seems to me. More disturbing details.

Only disturbing if you adhere to that formulaic recepie.

PS: Upon looking more closely.. the Latv.'salasa' is a compound... It
is a construct; from the
perfective 'sa' + 'lasiit' meaning 'to gather together'. This may not
preclude any direct
genetic relationship as regards 'germanic' or Slavic (sala/selo)
related words.. but does reduce
the possiblity of the existence of any previous root having been
common to all three on
independent tracks (*pie).

PPS: interesting happenstance: 'Upsala' means 'river island' or 'river
town' in Baltic.. can I
presume a meaning of 'high town' in Old Swedish?
.

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