Re: BBC does it again

Brian M. Scott wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:13:12 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<news:2eb018d2-97fe-44b2-ba01-97de68a662f5@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
in sci.lang:

On Jun 10, 12:24 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:22:14 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<news:87f3fee1-d9fd-48c0-bce1-2481ece234b3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
in sci.lang:

On Jun 10, 4:23 am, Ruud Harmsen <realemailons...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:49:39 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx>: in sci.lang:

Because /a/ is the latter vowel in BrE. The father vowel is /A:/

Once again, you are making a _single_ phonemic contrast with two
_different_ symbols -- lettershape AND length-mark. One (and only one)
of them is redundant. Either you distinguish the vowels by quality, OR
you distinguish them by quantity. NOT by both.

I know this counters the generally held view, but I don't agree with
that view.

Then don't expect to be understood, or taken seriously.

By you. Others seem to have no trouble, and as I pointed
out a while back, the Handbook of the IPA explicitly says
that this sort of representation is 'in accord with the
principles of the IPA'.

The IPA has always considered itself something apart from phonemic
theory. A "broad transcription" is not necessarily the same as a
phonemic transcription, and / / are not part of the IPA system.

And the well-known phonemic analyses of RP that mark both
length and quality don't exist, eh? You have a truly
remarkable aptitude for ignoring facts that conflict with
your prejudices.

By the way, slants figure prominently in the introductory
material in the Handbook.

It does seem (to me) reasonable to suggest that whatever phonemic representation one chooses to use ought to express the same thing as the phonemic model the same person uses to describe a language. For example, if one were to say that the core of the Dutch vowel system is six vowel pairs with length the significant distinguishing factor within each pair, then even while acknowledging that various other qualities of the vowels change along with their length, a representation consistent with the model as stated would involve {a, a:, e, e:, ...}, while {a, A:, E, e:, ...} would express more than the model does concerning what distinguishes these vowels from one another.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: A general question on learning languages
    ... quality trumps length. ... What are the values of English ... for I and a vocalized R so that Flower Fire Car and war and Bob War all ... It sure isn't how we write vowels here. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: How should we spell Hezbollah?
    ... coresponding long vowels is that of length, ... Arabic but are distinguished by quality in Farsi? ... persian it is more that of quality. ... Judging by the wealth of Arabic words in Urdu, ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: How should we spell Hezbollah?
    ... coresponding long vowels is that of length, ... Arabic but are distinguished by quality in Farsi? ... persian it is more that of quality. ... Judging by the wealth of Arabic words in Urdu, ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: BBC does it again
    ... Either you distinguish the vowels by quality, ... principles of the IPA'. ... representation one chooses to use ought to express the same thing as the ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: some more Irish vowels
    ... and a small capital omega for Spanish vowels? ... That contradicts PTD's assertion that IPA has no cardinal points, ... IPA does have cardinal points. ... because there are so few vowels. ...
    (sci.lang)
Loading