Re: proof that most etymologies are only fairy-tales

On Aug 12, 2:25 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Aug 12, 12:50 am, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Aug 11, 10:51 pm, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Aug 11, 2:12 pm, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Aug 11, 8:57 am, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I cannot find neither in books nor
on the web that anyone explains the position of the tongue wen
fricative /f/ is spoken.
Except this picture I posted in some of my earlier messages
http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/ling/shared/Phonetique/Schemas/labiode...
http://www.unil.ch/ling/page24535.html#2
The phoneme /f/ could be placed among the other "hissing" sounds (s,
z) and if you utter sequentially these sounds (s, f, z, h) you will be
able to feel that your tip of the tongue is behaving identically; i.e.
it touches the lower teeth
http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/ling/shared/IntroPhonEnglish/siffl.GIF
Since [s] is the IPA representation for an alveolar sound (which means,
by definition, that the tip of the tongue is in contact with the
alveolar ridge, behind the upper teeth), it follows that this picture is
a mistake. And, in fact, other information on the same page shows that
it's a mistake. (The page, for the rest of you, is at
http://www.unil.ch/ling/page24535.html
). For one thing, the explanation of this picture and the contrasting
one given for "hushers" (like [S] or, in real IPA, [ʃ]) says,
"Among the fricatives below are ones described as hissers and hushers.
The realization of a hisser requires a high degree of tension in the
tongue: a groove is formed along the whole length of the tongue, in
particular at the place of articulation where the air passes through a
little round opening. The hushers are produced similarly, but with a
shallower groove in the tongue, and a little opening more oval than
round. The lips are often rounded or projected outwards during the
realization of a husher (see figure 3.14 below)."
Since the two pictures show the production of two sounds that are NOT
produced similarly, NOT differing only in the manner described, it's
apparent that someone made a mistake with the first picture. For another
thing, the page, further down, takes up [s] again, and in *that* location
http://www.unil.ch/ling/page24535.html#3
it shows *this* image:
This is the exact position of the sound - lamino-predorsal [s] - I am
talking about (like in sober, soap, miss):
http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/ling/shared/IntroPhonEnglish/siffl.GIF
You are talking about apical /s/, the "lisping" one (like /s/ in most
of Spain)
You're just going to keep making this stuff up, aren't you, under the
delusion that you're talking to people who aren't deeply familiar with
the languages of which you speak? The /s/ in the Spanish of Spain,
spelled "s", is [s]. The "lisping" sound spelled "z", as well as "c"
before "e" and "i", is [T] (or [θ]), it's an interdental fricative (as
opposed to the alveolar fricative [s]), with the tip of the tongue
between the teeth, and it most certainly is not an apical /s/.
Have you got any more inanities for us?
You are right. I wanted to say Spanish soft "c" which is pronounced
like "s" or somewhere between "s" and "z". It is inter-dental, of
course, but it is unimportant for this discussion. What is important
is that /s/ is prevalently predorsal and not apical consonant and that
the above picture is not an error.
Yes, it is an error, and I already pointed out to you that the page
itself indicates in two different ways that it is. [s] doesn't change
just because you're talking about another language. If there a language
*does* have a sound that calls for a point of articulation of the tip of
the tongue against the lower teeth, then it isn't [s].

No one is saying (especially not me) that the point of articulation of
the sound [s] is between the apex of the tongue and the lower teeth.
It is articulated with the tongue blade against or close to the
superior alveolar ridge.

Well, then, what was your point? Why in the world are we even talking
about [s] then? We were talking about YOUR ridiculous and completely
false contention that one MUST have the tip of one's tongue against
one's lower teeth when pronouncing [f], or else that it would be
TERRIBLY, TERRIBLY DIFFICULT to pronounce it without having the tip of
the tongue against the lower teeth. And then you hauled out a mistaken
picture that purported to be about [s], which isn't [f], and, as usual,
because you are hopelessly incapable of focusing on a topic, got
completely off the track. Either get back on the track or let's forget it..

[s] is hisser as well as [f] and the both sounds (as well as z and h),
when being pronounced, force the tongue tip to lean against the lower
teeth. Of course, the place of articulation is different : [f] is
articulated with the lower lip pressed against the upper teeth while
the point of articulation of [s] is between the tongue blade (the area
where the median lingual sulcus begins) and the superior alveolar
ridge. It means that the position of the tongue is almost the same in
both cases, just in case of [f] the dorsum of the tongue is located a
little bit lower.

DV
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: proof that most etymologies are only fairy-tales
    ... Except this picture I posted in some of my earlier messages ... able to feel that your tip of the tongue is behaving identically; ... "Among the fricatives below are ones described as hissers and hushers. ... If there a language *does* have a sound that calls for a point of articulation of the tip of the tongue against the lower teeth, ...
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  • Re: proof that most etymologies are only fairy-tales
    ... Except this picture I posted in some of my earlier messages ... able to feel that your tip of the tongue is behaving identically; ... *does* have a sound that calls for a point of articulation of the tip of ... the tongue against the lower teeth, ...
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  • Re: proof that most etymologies are only fairy-tales
    ... where the tip of the tongue is firmly ... of your tongue firmly pressed against your lower teeth ... slightest bit of difference to the sound you're producing. ... the tip of my tongue isn't touching anything when I pronounce. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: proof that most etymologies are only fairy-tales
    ... where the tip of the tongue is firmly ... of your tongue firmly pressed against your lower teeth ... slightest bit of difference to the sound you're producing. ... the tip of my tongue isn't touching anything when I pronounce. ...
    (sci.lang)