Re: elementary Sanskrit blunder by Harvard professor

On Sep 29, 6:16 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 29, 4:09 pm, analys...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:





On Sep 29, 3:01 pm, Nathan Sanders <nsand...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In article
<0f93b213-e05c-40d6-bcf0-6c6e1ea0d...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

 analys...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Sep 29, 2:37 pm, "ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx"
<ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 29, 10:54 am, Joachim Pense <s...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx (in sci.lang):

On Sep 14, 5:38 pm, analys...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
PIIr never existed.

Proto-Indic is what the West calls PIE (or at least the Indian dialect
of it).

Did your proto-Indic have a [z]?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians
Among the sound changes from Proto-Indo-Iranian to Indo-Aryan is the
loss of the voiced sibilant *z

PIE is not supposed to have had *z, so what is the story of a *z in PII?

I don't know enough to say much about it; I was just quoting someone
else. Looking at this, it seems to be
mistaken:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Iranian

This is cute:
dnghu.org/indo-european-schleicher-fable.pdf

That brings up an interesting question:

Would the (re)constructed "PIE" change in anyway if Iranian is
excluded?

If you subtract data and redo your analysis on the remaining subset,
the resulting analysis runs the risk of not being able to account for
the data you subtracted.

(This isn't guaranteed, of course.)

Nathan

--
Nathan Sanders
Linguistics Program
Williams Collegehttp://wso.williams.edu/~nsanders/-
But thats what happened with Hittite/Tocharian/Luwian didn't it?  They
all changed our ideas of PIE or for that matter even its features on
being discovered.  But based on what Peter has written it looks like
PIE can be reconstructed ignoring Iranian and then Iranian explained
from the PIE that was constructed without it.

Sorry, how did you arrive at that conclusion? PIE is based on
comparing the reconstructions of PII, PIt, PGmc, PBSl, PCltc, and
internally reconstructed Gk and Alb; as time went on, they were able
to add Arm, Toch, and PAnat.

You asked how PIE would be reconstructed without taking into account
Iranian.

You didn't ask what would happen if the Iranian languages were
subsequently discovered. The answer to that is that they would be seen
to be intimately related to the Indic languages.

The Tocharian and Anatolian languages, however, are not particularly
close to any of the other attested IE languages,  so changes in the
reconstruction of PIE proved necessary.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Putting aside the absurdity of Sanskrit actually being one generation
younger than Greek, Albanian Armenian and Tocharian in this scheme -
the really interesting question (which doesn't appear to have been
considered in the available scholarly material) is a "minimal" set of
attested languages that can generate through reconstruction the full-
blown PIE beast. If no such minimal set (there might be more than
one) requires Iranian then the fictional nature of PII can be revealed
beyond doubt.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: elementary Sanskrit blunder by Harvard professor
    ... PIE can be reconstructed ignoring Iranian and then Iranian explained ... to be intimately related to the Indic languages. ... attested languages that can generate through reconstruction the full- ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: elementary Sanskrit blunder by Harvard professor
    ... PIE can be reconstructed ignoring Iranian and then Iranian explained ... to be intimately related to the Indic languages. ... attested languages that can generate through reconstruction the full- ... one) requires Iranian then the fictional nature of PII can be revealed ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: elementary Sanskrit blunder by Harvard professor
    ... PIE can be reconstructed ignoring Iranian and then Iranian explained ... to be intimately related to the Indic languages. ... attested languages that can generate through reconstruction the full- ... one) requires Iranian then the fictional nature of PII can be revealed ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: elementary Sanskrit blunder by Harvard professor
    ... PIE can be reconstructed ignoring Iranian and then Iranian explained ... to be intimately related to the Indic languages. ... attested languages that can generate through reconstruction the full- ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: elementary Sanskrit blunder by Harvard professor
    ... PIE can be reconstructed ignoring Iranian and then Iranian explained ... to be intimately related to the Indic languages. ... attested languages that can generate through reconstruction the full- ...
    (sci.lang)
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