Re: Words for "ordinal 2" in Germanic languages.

On Oct 2, 12:38 pm, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Sep 23, 10:59 am, paul.kr...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Sep 22, 8:30 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sep 17, 11:34 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Inspired (or something like that) by the recent discussions of
"second" in English, I looked it up in the OED, which includes the
following comment in the etymology.

OE. had no proper ordinal for the number two (like G. zweite,
Du. tweede, F. deuxième), the sense being expressed by óðer (see
OTHER a.); this being ambiguous, the Fr. word found early
acceptance.

Rummaging through the dictionaries I can find for modern Germanic
languages, I find that Danish has _anden_ for both "second" and
"other"; Swedish has _andra/e_ for "second" and a slightly different
word for "other"; Dutch has _tweede_ ("second") and _anden_ ("other",
sometimes "second"). Finally, German has mainly _zweite_ for "second"
but some uses such as _am anderen Tag_ (on the next day) that look as
if they might be vestiges of a broader use of "ander". But I don't
have access to any historical or etymological resources for those
languages at the moment.

I suspect that Dutch and German developed their distinct ordinal words
late --- is this correct?

Is there an explanation of why OE "failed" to develop such a word
natively (as German and Dutch have), or why Danish is satisfied with
one word for both senses?

Nevertheless, there is the English word 'twine' (entwine) which is
related to Serbian 'udvajanje' (making one of two) and German zweite
(zweien twos; Serb. dvoje; Germ. Zwillinge twins; Serb. dvojke).

well...yes

English other is related to OSl. въторъ (vtory, utory) and Slavic
'second' (Russ. другой, Serb. drugi, Cz.. druhy). In this case, tha
basis of all these words is 'circle' (krug, hring; OSl. крѫгъ). Now we
will see that Slavic drugi (second) and treći (Russ. третий third;
OSl. третии; Gr. τρίτος, Lat. tertius, Goth. þridja) are derived from
the same "associating" primal word (Serb. krug circle; kružok a small
society; therefrom udruženje, udruga (association), drug (friend),
družina (band, company, troop). It means that an "other" (vtory,
drugi /second/) or "others" (tretiy, treći /third/) are necessary for
making a society/community/company (Serb. društvo).

The first half of the first sentence is correct.

OTOH the Slavic prvi (first; OSl. прьвъ) is related to Latin primus (b
=> m sound change) and it comes from the verb probiti (penetrate,
break out, break through), hence the English words probe and prove as
well as Serbian pravo (right, straight, law)...

The first line of this paragraph is correct.

Well done, keep it up!!!
pjk

DV

Serbian 'probati' (attempt, try, taste; Russ. пробовать; Pol.
próbować)  is clearly related to the verb 'probiti' (penetrate, break
through; Russ. пробить to punch, to hole; Cz. průbojník puncher),
because the one who is "breaking through" must be the FIRST (prime,
Serb. prvi, Russ. первый; Cz. prvni) one to PROBE (Serb. probati
taste) the new "environment". Serbian 'probijati' (Russ. пробивать to
punch, penetrate, break through) is logically related to other Serbian
words as 'pravo' (straight ahead), pravac (direction; Russ.
правление). There is a Serbian adjective 'is-pravno" (correct, right),
which is the same word as ''is-probano (well-tried, checked, PROVED),
with a slight shift in meaning and with the change of the sound [b] to
[v].

Now you've gone completely and consistently off the rocker.

Serbian 'probijati' and all its Slavic cognates are compounds
of 'pro-' (through) + 'bíti/bijat/bij' (hit). It's quite logical for it
to mean penetrate or break through.

The word is so obviously NOT related to 'prvi', 'prvni' (first)
or 'prime', or 'proved', or 'pravo', or 'pravda', or 'pravac'
that it's not funny.

The first thing you must understand is why the Slavic verb "biti" (to
beat; Russ. бить, Cz. bit) has the same form as the auxiliary verb
"biti" (to be; Russ. быть, Cz. bytí ). If you are able to grasp it we
can go further and discuss the use of prefix pro- in Slavic as well as
in Germanic and Romance languages. Slavic pravo (law; Serb. pravo,
Russ. право, Cz. právo) comes from the adjective "pravo" (straight
ahead, direct; right hand as in English "right") and it is the antonym
of "krivo" (curved, wrong). In Serbian we have "pravda" (justice),
from "straight", "right" and "krivda" (wrong dong, injustice).

Now, the Slavic word 'probiti' (break through) is a compound word (as
you said above), constituted of pro- (through, over, beyond) + biti
(beat). During the process of "breaking through" is it not normal not
to make 'curves' if you want to achieve your goal. It means, during
"penetration" the most logical movement is "straight ahead" (Slavic
pravo).

DV

Is that Franz's humming method you've used again?

Are you so blind that you can't see the easy perceivable semantic
correspondences among those words?

Yes! You got it. You see through my blindness.

I am incorrigible, even under this torture I still keep saying
that "perceivable semantic correspondences" has nothing
to do with what are and what aren't cognates.

Slavic PRAVDA (justice, right) is a synonym for the PROVED truth.

Synonym?

The English 'proof' means right? Truth?
Is the '-ed' also related to '-da' in 'pravda'? Is that it?  :-)

I can understand people like Harlan,
Brainy or Denials who do not have any knowledge of Slavic; but, you
are a fluent speaker of Czech and you are familiar with other Slavic
tongues and, despite of all your undoubted knowledge, you are still
unable to grasp (at least in outlines) the internal logic of Slavic
vocabulary?

That's not fair to blame me more than the others.
I am only an irresponsible dabbler and I just obey orders.
Harlan, Brian, and Peter are the real professionals. Surely,
much greater weight should rest on their shoulders for not
'grasping' the infernal (whoops, did you say internal) logic
of your confabulations.

pjk

DV

.

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