Re: Phonetic contrast between lenis unvoiced and lenis voiced?

On Oct 16, 8:32 pm, "benli...@xxxxxxxxxx" <benli...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:44 pm, "ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx"



<ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 16, 2:32 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Oct 16, 4:20 pm, "ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx"
<ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 16, 10:17 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Oct 16, 1:06 pm, "ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx"

<ranjit_math...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It looks like a better term than lenis unvoiced is tenuis.

But then, Armenian stops are a pain in the behind anyway.

Malayalam might be a bigger pain for learners of the high register
because pronunciation depends on etymology.

The pronunciation of intervocalic p's, depending of etymology:
lenis Dravidian /p/ -> [b] VOT <15ms
tenuis Sanskrit /p/-> [p] VOT ~25ms
fortis English /p/-> [p] VOT ~45ms
aspirated Sanskrit /ph/ -> [p<h>] VOT ~80ms

If those all contrast, then there are four phonemes and etymology is
irrelevant. (Explanatory, but irrelevant for the speaker, cf.
amygdala.)

In the case of rarely spoken words that are commonly learnt from
reading rather than from others' speech, it is based on etymology that
it's decided how to pronounce them. In written Malayalam, there's no
orthographic difference between Dravidian /p/ and Sanskritic /p/.
There's no orthographic difference between English /p/ and Dravidian /
pp/; it's because one knows /kAppi/ came from English <coffee> that
one knows to never pronounce it as [kAp:i] but only pronounce it as
[kApi]. In the high register, that is.

And what if one comes across a word where one has no idea what its
etymology is?

What do you do when you have no idea which European language a word
came from? Assumptions, often incorrect, are made resulting in the
wrong set of phonological rules being applied.

Not phonological rules, but rules deriving pronunciation from
spelling.

When Pinochet is pronounced to rhyme with ricochet, aren't French
phonological rules being applied?

The point is that in English these rules will mostly produce
pronunciations which are compatible with the general phonology of the
language. You seem to be suggesting that in "high" Malayalam they have
added one or more series of consonants to the phonology. (And BTW
where do the VOT's come from?)

I'm not equipped for experiments, so I took VOTs reported for Mandarin
[b] and [p] whose degree of aspiration seems similar to the
corresponding sound in high Malayalam and interpolated a geometric
series to come up with 2 more VOTs between the two figures.

Rhyming pronunciation

(Pinochet incorrectly pronounced to rhyme with ricochet) and/or
spelling pronunciation takes over (the way you decided that <brahui>
was brahooey).

All of what you're talking about is spelling pronunciation. What
"should" Brahui be (in English)?

[br.Vhwi] is what it is to one Pakistani English speaker (I've heard
it only from one person).

Thus, "tsunami" gets pronounced with a cerebral [n.]

'coz the fellow who first transliterated it figured that a nasal
after /u/ must be cerebral, and "marine" gets pronounced with [aIn]
'coz the chap who first transliterated it decided that "ine" must be
[aIn].

This is very confusing. I think you must have switched back to talking
about Malayalam speakers and Malayalam orthography again.

Well, what PD was asking was how pronunciation would be deduced from
orthography if etymology is unknown, so I would naturally have to talk
about orthography and speakers to answer the question.

Surely you
have not heard English speakers with cerebral consonants, or
pronouncing "marine" with [aIn]?

Anglophones don't seem to use a cerebral sounding n intervocalically.
In a closing context with a back vowel, like in "soon", I hear
something more similar to a postalveolar cerebral than to my
postdental/prealveolar n (which tends to be reported in literature as
alveolar). As for "marine" with [aIn], in my time, the high register
followed British pronunciation. So, the high register would use
[m@ri:n] if the riffraff hadn't made [maraIn] the standard. Actually,
there are two high registers - a Sanskritophilic register which tries
to pronounce Sanskrit loans somewhere between plebian pronunciation
and their pronunciation in Sanskrit and an Anglophilic register which
tries to pronounce English loans rather like their pronunciation in
the highest register of Indian English; there are those who try to
combine both registers.

Ross Clark

.

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