Re: The Turkic Languages in a Nutshell



Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
In sci.lang Darkstar <darkstar100@xxxxxxxx> wrote in <145dc128-b841-4403-81a0-9836964078c4@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:


: Darkstar wrote:
:> Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
:> > In sci.lang Darkstar <darkstar100@xxxxxxxx> wrote in <677f67fe-803a-4806-b1f8-44f5901e6380@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
:> >
:>
:> > : A fact is what is immediately obvious but has to be first firmly
:> > : established as such. For instance, I didn't establish that "emes" was
:> >
:> > emes is post-karakahanid since the "r"of the verb er= "to be" is dropped.
:> > emes comes from ermez ,the negative aorist of er=.
:> >
:> >
:> > : well-attested in Karakhanid, but based that on an unreliable secodary
:> >
:> > the alternative tegu"l < da:*gh* ol is mentioned in kashgari as
:> > speciifically oghuz and in the second form as arghu, though from later and
:> > modern sources we know and coudl inferitwasmore widespread.
:> >
:>
:> The question with Uzbek-Uyghur, as well as Karakhanid, is that they
:> are lexicostatistically close to Kyrghyz-Kimak, and therefore should
:> be considered as the Karluk languages that separated from Proto-Kyrgyz-
:> Kimak at some point between the 8th and 12th century. Therefore the
:> idea that Karakhanid=Orkhon Old Turkic is dubious.
:>
:> Another strange thing is that the Oghuz-Seljuk languages (~80%) have
:> the same lexicostatistical distance from the Kimak-Karluk-Kyrgyz
:> central subgroup (~80%) as does the Khakas-Tuvan subgroup, but Oghuz-
:> Seljuk is further away from the Khakas-Tuvan subgroup by 10% (~70%),
:> which doesn't make sense.
:> Either it's a statistical error, or there was a loop in the tree, as
:> the central Kimak-Karluk-Kyrgyz branch diversified from one group but
:> strongly interacted with another one.
:>
:> The process of Turkic diversification was so complex that I can't
:> figure it out in detail...


turkic langauges interatced with one another to a considerable degree.

: Another dubious question is the position of Turkmen (Transoxanian
: Oghuz?). The more I study it, the more weird constructions there, such
: as "bu tayda" instead of the Seljuk "burada" <*bu yerde and eastern

my guess is that tayda comes from persian ta: "as far as", frequently in
persian final a: becomes a:y


burada comes from *bu arada


: Turkic "anda". So I'm inclined to think now, the Seljuk languages
: (traveling to the south of the Tian Shan??) were a separate branch,
: that should be viewed separately from Turkmen (which traveled to the
: north of the Tian Shan?).

no need to invent histories to explain Turkmen. Turkmen preserved some
archaicisims (like long vowels), was influenced by eastern turkic because
of its proximity to it and because chaghatay was the written language ands
also by iranian

That's all very well, but Turkmen seems to exhibit phonological
changes that take time and are consistent with an earlier separation,
such as Turkish/Azeri bura, but Turkmen ba"ri; Turkish/Azeri genish,
but Turkmen giNish; Turkish/Azeri de- , but Turkmen diy-; Turkish/
Azeri baykush. but Turkmen baygush, Turkish nasIl, but Turkmen nähili,
Turkish/Azeri kara/qara, but Turkmen gara; Turkish/Azeri -m (1st
person, sing.), but Turkmen -n. Such changes cannot be normally
attributed to borrowings, either they need a specific substratum or a
relatively long time to occur.
.

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