Re: Programming languages



In message <he4d94$47ja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Herman Rubin <hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
In article <QMBc+1HBZTBLFwMD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Richard Herring <richard.herring@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <he1eoj$25ng@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Herman Rubin
<hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
In article <NSb7Z7CuX8ALFw2a@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Richard Herring <richard.herring@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <hdurji$4koc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Herman Rubin
<hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
In article <64oWjjHh2nALFwjJ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Richard Herring <richard.herring@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <1om3g5l6hd74a5fp3t9dp3diob0qk274ar@xxxxxxx>, Ruud Harmsen
<rh@xxxxxxxxx> writes
16 Nov 2009 16:19:50 -0500: hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Herman
Rubin): in sci.lang:

[...]

At the level at which the CPU caches and pipelines instructions and
attempts to predict, they constitute unpredictable interruptions of what
is otherwise an orderly flow of execution, requiring the cache and
pipeline to be flushed.

These are places which occur frequently and are predictable.
Subroutine calls are interruptions of an orderly flow, as the
subroutine may be far away in memory.

But the interruption is orderly, with well-defined entry and exit
points, and the subroutine arguments quite likely already in the right
registers. The compiler may even inline the function if it's small. It
can't inline spaghetti code. Moreover, at every point that's potentially
the target of a goto, the compiler has to discard all cache and register
contents and reload its variables form memory. That's expensive.

Why? There is no reason that the compiler cannot
consider the locations from which a goto can be
reached.

The compiler can "consider" all it likes, but that won't change the fact that at the target of an unstructured jump, the machine state will be different according to the route by which it arrived there.

[...]

Few gotos will be called from a large number of places;
on the other hand, functions and other subroutines
will be so called. Consider a goto as a semi-subroutine,
but as part of the local block.

There's an old computer-science joke about the "computed comefrom statement" which is relevant here.

It's not the goto that's the problem, but the comefrom. A subroutine always returns to the place it was invoked from (OK, there are exceptions like Fortran's "alternate return" syntax, but they have the same problem as unstructured gotos) and the only way to arrive there is via that return, so the machine state at the point of return is well defined.

[...]

It is clearly more
efficient to transfer to a particular location than to place
that location or case number somewhere and call a subroutine
whose only purpose here is to make that transfer.

When you take into account the overheads of flushing caches and
pipelines, there's no "clearly" about it.

Why flush the caches and pipelines? This is the stupidity.

Maintaining consistency is "stupidity"?

Anything which HAS TO BE flushed will have to be flushed
even if no gotos are used.

It's unstructured gotos which create your "HAS TO BE" condition.

Unlike structured code, spaghetti code isn't amenable to important
optimization techniques like instruction scheduling, branch predication
and (hardware) branch prediction.

Why not? When dealing with random number generating
routines, one can rather easily calculate branch
prediction.

Not what I'm talking about. The phrase "(hardware) branch prediction"
refers to something the hardware does: in a pipelined processor,
depending on the likely outcome of a conditional branch, it may be much
faster to queue up a sequence of instructions whose results may
sometimes be discarded when the condition is finally determined, rather
than actually branching, which requires the pipeline to be flushed.

And when writing assembler code, the programmer can take
this into account. A forward goto over a short distance
is one way of doing this.

Not the same thing. The whole point of the hardware technique is to _avoid_ the use of a "forward goto".


--
Richard Herring
.



Relevant Pages

  • Re: Programming languages
    ... pipeline to be flushed. ... Subroutine calls are interruptions of an orderly flow, ... The compiler may even inline the function if it's small. ... the target of a goto, the compiler has to discard all cache and register ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Problem writing code to go to a label after calling a procedure
    ... >>I first tried to create procedures for parts of the program to avoid ... Thanks for the advice J French. ... I know a good program structure avoids many goto ... subroutine, this is somthing I found that Visual Basic can't do. ...
    (comp.lang.basic.visual.misc)
  • Re: FORSTY - The Fortran Styler :-)
    ... What's wrong with a subroutine call? ... you *CAN* get by without the goto. ... You artifically put a loop around all the executable code in the ... but just because Fortran has a loop exit construct. ...
    (comp.lang.fortran)
  • Re: FORSTY - The Fortran Styler :-)
    ... I've got a subroutine like that. ... you *CAN* get by without the goto. ... You artifically put a loop around all the executable code in the ... but just because Fortran has a loop exit construct. ...
    (comp.lang.fortran)