Re: The Road with no Branches argument

From: 1Z (peterdjones_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/30/04 

Date: 30 Oct 2004 08:12:08 -0700

"Milan" <mtklima@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2ug7unF2701ppU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> "Mike Oliver" <mike_lists@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:2ug26oF28it0jU1@uni-berlin.de...
> > Milan wrote:
> >
> > > Chaos is a classical theory with classical equations which posits that
> > > certain events that are crucially dependent on initial conditions are
> > > unpredictable. The idea that chaos in some way derives from quantum
> effects
> > > which are "amplified" is rather peculiar and is certainly not an
> integral
> > > part of chaos theory.
> >
> > Hm? I didn't say it did. It's not the chaotic nature
> > of weather that derives from the quantum indeterminism;
> > weather would look chaotic even if the inputs were
> > deterministic.
>
> You said the following in your previous post:
>
> "My thesis is that the *real* quantum indeterminism
> at the microscopic level is chaotically *amplified* to an
> observable scale."

Meaning that it doesn't just look chaotic (is unpredictable but
actually deterministic) , it is is actually indeterministic.

> > But the inputs *aren't* deterministic. And that's why the
> > outcome is not deterministic either.
>
>
> > > It would be interesting to know why -as you suggest-
> > > quantum effects which are only manifested at the subatomic level are
> > > "amplified" by phenomena like the weather,
> >
> > Where'd you get the idea that quantum effects are only manifested
> > at the subatomic level? As Gilbert would say, if that's your idea,
> > you're wrong. The quantum indeterminacy in the position of an atom
> > can be a noticeable fraction of its size. Perhaps *more* than
> > its size, in special states of matter such as Bose-Einstein
> > condensates. Atoms aren't subatomic.
>
> The tunnel effects displayed by billiard balls tends not to impair too much
> the accuracy of snooker players, as far as we can tell.

An unfortunate choice of example. Quantum uncertainty can be shown to have a
sgnificant effect on a snooker 'break'.

> I would still like
> to hear an explanation of how you suggest "quantum indeterminacy at the
> microscopic level is chaotically amplified".

Since QM is an experimental science, there are various pieces of apparatus,
such as geiger counters, which can amplify quantum events. And no, that
doesn't mean such amplification is always artificial.

> > > but -on the other hand- not
> > > amplified by so many other macroscopic phenomena which behave in a
> > > deterministic and predictable manner.
> >
> > Behave in an *approximately* deterministic and predictable manner.
>
> As far as we can tell the approximation is good enough to make them look
> deterministic to all intents and purposes. No indeterminism is detected.
> Therefore none should be inferred.

But where no determinism can be detected -- predictions cannot be made --
we SHOULD nonetheless infer it ? Hmmm...

> > The approximate determinism of some macroscopic systems is caused
> > by the way those systems are constructed--namely, in such a way
> > that quantum effects tend to cancel each other out by the law of
> > averages, rather than reinforcing one another.
>
> Decoherence, whatever. The fact is that the macro world is nicely
> deterministic.

Parts of it are predictable, other parts are not. What entitles
you to infer determinism from unpredictability ?

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