Re: AI versus Human Consciousness

From: Anthony Cerrato (tcerrato_at_optonline.net)
Date: 01/07/05 

Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:40:57 -0500

"Raan" <RaanOne@One.org> wrote in message
news:RANCd.9755$7n1.704886@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Anthony Cerrato" <tcerrato@optonline.net> wrote in
message
> news:sFLCd.8445$go5.1706@fe12.lga...
> >
> > "Raan" <RaanOne@One.org> wrote in message
> > news:wUaCd.3746$7n1.177263@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > >
> > > "Albert" <albertwagner@cox.net> wrote in message
> > > news:8EVAd.16111$ql2.4796@okepread04...
> > > > Raan wrote:
> > > > > Unless and until paranormal phenomena can be
> > conclusively proven to even
> > > > > exist at all, it is an exercise in fantasy and
> > futility to speculate
> > > about
> > > > > their relationship to consciousness, artificial or
> > otherwise.
> > > >
> > > > Why does science speculate about what it cannot yet
> > prove
> > > > conclusively? The history of science is the history
of
> > speculation.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > Scientists speculate about actual phenomena.
> > > --
> > > ></>
> >
> > I agree. But there is a problem with the application of
> > science to the hard problem of consciousness--a
meaningful
> > qualitative explanation of qualia as a universal
phenomena.
> > This is because the "feeling of red" and like things is
> > relative to each individual mind/brain--relative
"feelings"
> > can never be compared between two brains by the
scientific
> > method. Experiments cannot be repeated for one thing.
Also,
> > no observer can observe oneself and certainly cannot
compare
> > such feelings to those of another brain. While the
physical
> > processes that lead to such qualia can be investigated
and
> > cataloged for comparison, this will never tell us
exactly
> > what the "feelings" are that they create in that other
> > brain. We need to be satisfied with a reasonably
complete
> > catalog of the physical subprocesses (memory,
biochemistry,
> > and neural organization) that create those "feelings."
This
> > is quite
> > enough to define them to the extent possible.
> > ...tonyC
>
> And just what is the feeling of red anyway? Can you
isolate it?

No, that's why it is a hard problem.

> Is it
> something you can observe apart from the perception of
red? Is it in fact
> in any way an observation? Or could it rather be an
intention?

It is not an observation in my sense of the use of a word--I
take observation as a result accruing from one of the 6
known (traditional) physical senses. Maybe "[physical]
perception" would be a more general term. If you mean to
count any specific , or even general, process involved in
the activity of the brain as an "observation," then all bets
are off and anything would count. I don't know how the word
intention would possibly apply to an observation in the
scientific sense. Maybe just calling it the general sense of
things like the "feeling of red" is better.

>The very
> concept of qualia is ill defined at best. See my other
post about the
> limitations of science and the true nature of the hard
problem in this
> thread.

I'm not sure if I remember your other post, but I certainly
agree that qualia is, indeed, ill-defined. I only use it
because it is a convenient code and is widely used in the
literature, probably since, although not well-defined people
still know what it means more or less.

That's the whole point, or at least part of it, in my saying
that " 'feelings' can never be compared between two brains
by the scientific method." Science is indeed limited in this
area.
Cheers, ...tonyC

> --
> ></>
>
>

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Free Will
    ... No where in the performance will you find consciousness. ... feel your feelings. ... from the brain, it is a property of the brain in action. ... Qualia that you feel aren't a property of your brain! ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Re: Free Will
    ... No where in the performance will you find consciousness. ... feel your feelings. ... from the brain, it is a property of the brain in action. ... Qualia that you feel aren't a property of your brain! ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)
  • Putting feelings into words
    ... Putting feelings into words produces therapeutic effects in the brain ... "One way to practice mindfulness meditation and pay attention to ...
    (uk.philosophy.humanism)
  • Retro-causal signal nonlocality
    ... a patient slips slowly inside a hospital brain scanner. ... "We're satisfied that people can sense the future before it happens," says Professor Bierman, a psychologist at the University of Amsterdam. ... his findings mirror the data gathered by other scientists and paranormal researchers both here and abroad. ... In technical parlance it is known as 'presentiment' because emotional feelings are being received from the future, ...
    (sci.math)
  • Re: A reply to Marvin Minsky.
    ... Thus leaving qualia out of the picture is beneficial. ... And intelligence requires awareness." ... especially with your "rocks are aware" argument. ... The part of the brain that makes us act like we act, ...
    (comp.ai.philosophy)