Re: Help for non-logic person

From: Noah Roberts (nroberts_at_stmartin.edu)
Date: 01/28/05 

Date: 28 Jan 2005 09:22:26 -0800

Peter Webb wrote:
> A lot of this argument is about undefined words, "it's just a play on
words"
> as you note as your last sentence.

Right, my whole argument is about the definition of omnipotent being.
I was trying to discredit the stone argument.

>
> If you want to bring in Godel, it must be by an analogy. Its a poor
analogy,
> but lets use that as a starting point.
>
> All sufficiently complex mathematical systems are either incomplete
(there
> are statements which are true but cannot be proven as true in that
system)
> or they are inconsistent - for example you can prove 1=2.
"Sufficiently
> complex" is any system that includes the numbers 1, 2, 3, ... and
some basic
> rules of logic.
>
> Most Godel arguments on God concentrate on he undecidability part.
You are
> not. You are more saying "God might be illogical" - which is "the
system is
> inconsistent" (in your analogy). In any inconsistent system you can
prove
> any statement true ... for example, if you can prove 1=2 you can
prove 2=3
> or 2=4 or indeed 14246214=876238642882428.

Actually, I am not the one using Godel. I didn't know anything about
the man until my opponent said I was violating the consistency theorem.
I did a google search and Godel is the only one I come up with. So
actually one of the things I am trying to see is how Godel's theorem
applies to my argument, or if there is another consistency theorem that
is different.
>
> In your analogy, this is like admitting the possibility that God
appears in
> front of you and instantly turns you into a frog, and in so doing
violates
> the laws of conservation of mass. Now, firstly, this hasn't ever been
shown
> to happen, just as nobody has produced a proof that
> 14246214=876238642882428. Secondly, what you say might be true, but
where
> does it take us? If an illogical God can suddenly make illogical
things
> happen, is there any point in doing anything? After all, as a frog
you won't
> be needing to live indoors ...

The other side has implications as well. If God is limited by logic,
and thus logical, he would then be limited by all laws of physics etc.
(right?), and therefore he would be basically powerless over us, in the
extent that we could eventually design technology (or evolve) to defeat
him or at least create a standoff.

Relevant Pages

  • Methodological Materialism and Philosophical Materialism
    ... facts, we're presenting our opinions as beliefs. ... saying "i believe X is true" is no ... If I say "I believe God exists" ... which false analogy did i bring up? ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Luskin: Judge Wrong To Rule Against IDs Theology
    ... you, in my opinion, seem to be failing to persuade. ... lisa being good or bad art are OPINIONS. ... the existence of god is not an opinion. ... mean the analogy works. ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Is Pro-gay OK for Church?
    ... But, to be honest, no analogy fits 100%...but your reasoning appeared ... Because, of sorts, God did exactly as I illustrated, ... then all these other lives must not be of God? ... recall in my childhood people saying that Blacks were outside of God's ...
    (soc.religion.christian)
  • Re: Yet another Jefferson quote
    ... For somebody to complain that God should have stopped ... as an alternative analogy. ... different from *some* of the ways that the Quran claims that God uses ... The One who lowers whoever He willed by His ...
    (alt.religion.islam)
  • Re: Platonism
    ... Godel was not naive. ... >> mathematical platonism without also arguing against a mechanical mind, ... >> or arguing for the existence of a mathematical god. ...
    (comp.theory)