Re: Formulating sentences in a possibly consistent ZF

MoeBlee wrote:
On Nov 6, 12:12 pm, John Jones <jonescard...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
MoeBlee wrote:

There is the set of sentences in the language of ZF.
That's no good either. I have been well aware of the fact that while the
term 'set' is often good enough for general purposes, it is of no use to
us here. The logico-mathematical 'set' is ambiguous, like ZF, over
whether it is a summatated totality of its elements/sentences, or
whether it is an emergent property supported by its elements/sentences.

The word 'set' is used by me exactly as in a set theory, such as Z set
theory. So the word 'set' is not even required; it is merely a
convenience for ease of reading; wherever the word 'set' occurs, in a
context such as Z set theory, we can find some other locution without
the word 'set' as long as we are willing to put up with some
awkwardness, though not inaccuracy, in phrasing.

Somehow, the meanings of terms was given over to history.


I am sorry you have to take the flak for this. After all, you are only
repeating the ideas that others have laid out before you.

I don't merely repeat. I understand.

And ZF is the set of sentences in the language of ZF that are theorems
of the axioms of ZF.
AS I have just said, concerning sets, it gets us nowhere. I am also not
bothered about theorems and axioms at this point. I am looking at the
gross structure.

You're not looking at anything other than the shadow play on the
inside of your own skull.

The gross structure looks not at the structure of the sentences of ZF, but the rules by which they convey any meaning.

If ZF is consistent, then ZF is a certain proper subset of the set of
sentences in the language of ZF.
So now it looks as if you are confirming that there are indeed two ZF's,
a language ZF and a consistent ZF,

No, that is idiotic for you to say. It has no relation to anything I
said. Please get a book on the subject.

You said ZF was an X (subset) in the ZF of Y (language).
You said ZF was an X in the ZF of Y .


but that there is no contradiction or
ambiguity between them because they are related as a set/subset.

But how does a subset/set bring into relationship two distinct models of
ZF - ZF as a totality and ZF as a whole?

I'm not talking about models of ZF. I said that already.

You are talking about models of ZF. EITHER your model of ZF is a totlaity of sentences or it is a whole.

Look, ZF presents sentences. Where is the mesning of these sentences to be found? In the sentences? or in ZF as a whole?

You're
wasting our time when you're not even reading my posts, let alone that
you won't read a book.

If ZF is inconsistent, then ZF is the set of sentences in the language
of ZF.
And if ZF is consistent then ZF is the set of sentences in the language
of ZF? ...

No. I JUST said that if ZF is consistent then ZF is a proper subset of
the set of sentences in the language of ZF.

No, I said that ZF is the set of sentences in the 'language' of ZF? Now, is 'the language' of ZF a set or not?


You're not reading my
posts.

I read that bit about subsets, but you mislaid my point that ZF could be the set of sentences in the language of ZF if the languageof ZF is not a set. In other words, if language is not a set then ZF can hardly be a subset of it!

And you need to read a book anyway.

Why don't you stop multiplying terms, and drop the
'language' of ZF.

Language is mentioned for the purpose of precision that you can't
understand since you won't even read a book on the subject. You have
no idea what the language of ZF is nor then what ZF is.

What. You mean you can't, don't or won't deliver?

If you want to
discuss this, then you need to read a book on it, just like anybody
else who has ever learned the subject.

MoeBlee

....discuss what?
.

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