Re: Wolfram Research QA process defect: Bug in Mathematica 6 - Integrate - 68 (Sqrt, invalid value) - BUG THE LONG LIVER: 1996-2008 (!)

On Jan 28, 12:34 pm, Jeff Barnett <jbb...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Daniel Lichtblau wrote:
On Jan 28, 2:42 am, Vladimir Bondarenko <v...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I don't quite understand the intent of the above remark: Is it to imply
that VB is responsible for determining why there is a glitch; i.e., is
he responsible for debugging someone else's code? If so, could you tell
me what you believe in general is the responsibility of consumers and
other victims?

The intent is to note that endless repetition of what appear to be
identical underlying bugs, with modestly differing inputs, is not of
use in helping anyone except possibly the one posting the endless
reports.

I will comment on your use of the term "victims". This is an
unmoderated forum, and you are of course welcome to use whatever
language you choose. That noted, I will also point out that I know
many of the people involved in implementation of symbolic computation
programs (commercial and otherwise). I very much doubt you will be
taken seriously by any of them if you resort to such terminology when
discussing the coding and usage of technology that is still very much
a work in progress.


I believe the better way for this to go down is the following: The
vendor, after discovering a bug, announces to all current and potential
customer that there is a bug and its impact so the consumers can act
intelligently by avoiding the problem and not re-reporting the same bug.

Announces that there is a bug in definite integration? More accurate
would be to note that some types of symbolic definite integration are
fraught with problems, both in algorithmic limitations and in code
technology. These are things I have remarked on a few times in this
forum, and elsewhere.

At times I think it is almost more noteworthy to announce when
symbolic definite elliptic integrals work correctly. But that level of
cynicism comes of seeing the various ways in which such things can
break.


For the most part, the vendors implicated by VB don't do their part.

How would one know that?


One of the CAS rarely discussed here - MATLAB - is used to design
algorithms and generate code, from the math, that actually flies in
aircraft.

Matlab, while it might be a useful and well engineered program, is not
a computer algebra system in any sense of which I am aware. It most
certainly does not do symbolic definite integrals involving elliptics,
or convolution methods with MeijerG functions.


For those of you that think CAS bugs are natural, expected,
and okay (and other people too), I recommend hard hats in case a steel
and titanium bug manifestation drops out of the sky near you. We could
also talk about hospital systems that are more and more automated and
depend more and more on math things (image processing, etc.) and decide
whether the current CAS are ready to contribute.

-- Jeff Barnett

The current programs that do symbolic computation are also used in
various industrial design capacities. I really doubt they are being
used fo their symbolic elliptic integration capabilities, in such
instances. Certainly Matlab is not being used in that way.

Above and beyond that, you really should strive for serious discussion
rather than this "sky is falling" stuff (if you want to be taken
seriously, at least by serious people). Yes, bugs in programs can and
do contribute to engineering fiascos and occasional outright
tragedies. More commonly, sound use of state of the art program
technologies, symbolic computation methods sometimes among them, lead
in useful directions in terms of research, design, and development.

The fact that symbolic computation is not, at this time, one of the
major players in leading new technological development might just
indicate it is still a young field. Or that the algorithms are not
(yet) sufficiently developed. Or maybe that it is not terribly
relevant. I really doubt it in any way reflects excessive corporate
greed, or a cavalier attitude amongst commercial and free software
developers, in terms of R&D or QA processes. Which is what I see being
implied and/or stated explicitly, in this recent spate of posts about
symbolic calculus.


Daniel Lichtblau
Wolfram Research
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Wolfram Research QA process defect: Bug in Mathematica 6 - Integrate - 68 (Sqrt, invalid
    ... vendor, after discovering a bug, announces to all current and potential ... would be to note that some types of symbolic definite integration are ... You seem to be worried whether I, as opposed to my opinions, will be taken seriously by developers, etc. Let's address that issue so we can get back to a more appropriate academic debate about CAS and the current state of the art vis a vis what might be better. ... Such announcements are, of course, the responsibility of the vendors. ...
    (sci.math.symbolic)
  • Re: Do you have a Knowledge Officer?
    ... I love working on infrastructure ... Management are no more responsible for deployment than they are for ... is actually the opposite - it means that you have an intermittent bug ... Balkanization of responsibility. ...
    (comp.lang.cobol)
  • Re: Effective strategy for using VSS in a development team?
    ... Proper changeset support ... Control Integration in VS.NET 2003, but the new round of integration points ... integrated into VS. (It's an Explorer plugin.) ... but their bug tracking tool could be quite a bit better). ...
    (microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp)
  • Re: DJBs students release 44 *nix software vulnerability advisories
    ... I've got no problems with punnishing programmers ... If you wanted to run a course where students are failed for having one bug ... to *NOT* fix a security bug in WMP 9. ... a genuine responsibility aas opposed to a PR issue. ...
    (Bugtraq)
  • Re: Given Up on Linux1
    ... > your your frustrations without making false accusations (ranting about ... > debian when you latter admitted debian was not the issue) that started the ... One bug at a time. ... responsibility for my actions. ...
    (alt.os.linux)