Betweenness (Lost in Translation?)

From: Edwin Clark (eclark_at_math.usf.edu)
Date: 07/03/04 

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:31:33 GMT

Recently during a discussion on another forum about the meaning of
betweenness in English, John McCarthy wrote:

> I think the reason "between" isn't precise in English is that the
> intended meaning on a spoken "between" is almost always clear from
> context, so there isn't much motivation to have separate words.
> Circumlocution is used when necessary. If my conjecture is correct,
> then the equivalents of "between" in other spoken languages should be
> similarly ambiguous.

Since there are so many languages represented by students and faculty here
at the Math Dept at the University of South Florida, I decided to try a
little poll of the department.(If I waited till next week I know I could
get several more languages, but this will suffice.)

This is what I asked them to do:

Please translate the following question into your mother tongue:
       "How many integers are between 1 and 3?"
and let me know what the correct answer is:
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NOTES: Some answers below give the answer as "2" meaning the only
integer between 1 and 3 is 2. Others give the answer "1" meaning that there
is only one integer between 1 and 3.
I owe the subject title  "Lost in Translation" to my colleague Mile
Krajcevski who just saw the movie and you may try to guess which
 two translations he provided.
If I had it to do over I would try to compose a better sentence for
translation.
If you speak a language not represented below or if you disagree with
one of the translations your input would be appreciated.
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Afaan Oromo:
Translation in "Afaan Oromo" one of the largest African Languages. Mother
tongue for about 40 million people and second language for about 5-10
million people. Mainly spoken in the horn of Africa. It is instructional
and media language.
The translation is: "Laakobsa meeqatu 1 fi 3 jidu jira?"
The answer is 1.
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German and Serbo-Croatian:
In German, the phrase
      "Wieviel ganze Zahlen gibt es zwischen eins und drei"
would never include 1 and 3 and that the equivalent in Serbo-Croatian
even more explicitly excludes the borders.(See below for more on
Serbo-Croatian.)
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--------
Japanese:
If I translate the question as
    "1 to 3 no aida ni ikutsu no seisu ga arimasuka"
(Note that "to" here means "and" in Japanese.)
Then the answer would be one.
But I translate the question as
   "1 kara 3 no aida ni ikutusu no seisu ga arimasuka", (Note that "kara"
means "from" in Japanese.)
then the answer should be three.  But then, for this one, if I translate
it into English, it will be
    "How many integers are there from 1 to 3?"
[But when I learned English, more confusing to me was the expression "more
than".  Because in daily conversation we only use "ijo", which is more
than or equal to.  And when I learned that expression, my Engligh teacher
translated it as "ijo".  Took me a while for my wrong notion to get
corrected.]
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-------------
Hungarian:
In Hungarian it can be ambiguous, through the strict translation of
between leaves only 2 (but in many cases we have to specify if we include
the limits or not).
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--------------
Fulfulde:
In my mother tongue one of the most spoken in Central and West Africa,
called "Fulfulde" (central Africa) and "Pular" (west Africa). the word
between which means "hakkude" never includes boundaries. So the only
integer in "hakkude gotel be tati" is 2.  The question translates as:
"Limde noy ngoni hakkude  gotel be tati ?"
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--------------
Guyarati and Hindi:
In my mother tongue which is Gujarati spoken in the state of gujarat in
India and many IndianAmericans up north, the word between means "vacche"
and never include boundaries. so the answer would be 1. Also in Hindi, the
national language of India, the word "between" means "beech mein" and it
excludes the boundaries. So again the answer is 1.
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----------------
Chinese:
The Chinese translation is
     1 he 3 zhi jian you ji ge zheng shu?
Answer: 1.
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Arabic and French:
I'll try: "How many integers are between 1 and 3?"
Arabic:  "Kam Adad bayna wahed wa thalatha"
French: "Combien y a t-il d'entiers entre un et trois".
The answer is one for both languages.
P.S.  The Arabic translation is somehow hard because there are arabic
symbols which do not have an anlogue in english(The only way I can explain
it is to say it in front of you but I think you know what I mean some
when you pronouce them they come from real inside the throat).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Russian:
In Russian, "between" usually excludes the boundaries. For example,
'some place between Moscow and St. Petersburg' usually means that it is
not in Moscow and not in St. Petersburg (and even not very close to
either of them). From this point of view, I would say that there is 1
integer between 1 and 3. However, with integers it is not as clear as
with cities, because talking about integers, we switch from the regular
Russian language to mathematics, and in mathematics it is not that
clear. However, I would say that in Russian mathematics, 'between'
without clarification would rather mean an open interval; the same as
the word 'interval' in Russian means an open interval, and 'closed
intervals' in Russian are 'segments' and not intervals. If somebody
wants to include 1 and 3, they would use such terms as 'from 1 to 3'
rather than 'between'.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Polish:
In Polish it will be:
"Ile liczb naturalnych jest pomiedzy 1 a 3?"
and here Polish is also ambigious...
Definitely I would ask for a clarification, and that's really problem
since many times we have to rewrite math olympic problems to avoid
this very ambigiousity... we would said "scisle pomiedzy" (which means
strictly between) but saying "pomiedzy" (between) might be understood both
as strictly between and "usual" between.
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--
Bulgarian:
In Bulgarian "between" would mean just one integer, namely 2!
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---
Macedonian and Serbo-Croatian:
 Macedonian version  ( in cyrilic, but with latin equivalents ):
      " Kolku celi broevi  ima  pomegu  1  i 3?"
Serbo-Croatian version would be
      "  Koliko celih brojeva ima izmegju  1  i 3?"
Macedonian answer is "eden" and Serbo-Croatian answer is "jedan" , so
in both cases the boundaries are not included.
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English (comment by an erudite colleague):
The problem appears to be the origin of the word "between,"
which descends from the Old English betweonum, which is itself
a descendent or variant of the Gothic tweihnai (= "two each"),
and refers to such terms as:
    sharing the work between them
    deciding the case between them
Old English handled your question with the word betwux, also
a variant of tweihnei (in Gothic, tei is 2) meaning "in an
intermediate position," which became the archaic word betwixt,
which later became "betwixt and between."  I guess people
didn't like betwixt, because later we got "in between" and
the mathematical "strictly in between.
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Entry from Mirriam-Webster Online:
Main Entry: 1be·tween
Pronunciation: bi-'twEn
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English betwene, preposition & adverb, from Old English
betwEonum, from be- + -twEonum (dative plural) (akin to Gothic tweihnai two
each); akin to Old English twA two
1 a : by the common action of : jointly engaging <shared the work between
the two of them> <talks between the three -- Time> b : in common to : shared
by <divided between his four grandchildren>
2 a : in the time, space, or interval that separates b : in intermediate
relation to
3 a : from one to another of <air service between Miami and Chicago> b :
serving to connect or unite in a relationship (as difference, likeness, or
proportion) <a one-to-one correspondence between sets> c : setting apart
<the line between fact and fancy>
4 : in point of comparison of <not much to choose between the two coats>
5 : in confidence restricted to <a secret between you and me>
usage There is a persistent but unfounded notion that between can be used
only of two items and that among must be used for more than two. Between has
been used of more than two since Old English; it is especially appropriate
to denote a one-to-one relationship, regardless of the number of items. It
can be used when the number is unspecified <economic cooperation between
nations>, when more than two are enumerated <between you and me and the
lamppost> <partitioned between Austria, Prussia, and Russia -- Nathaniel
Benchley>, and even when only one item is mentioned (but repetition is
implied) <pausing between every sentence to rap the floor -- George Eliot>.
Among is more appropriate where the emphasis is on distribution rather than
individual relationships <discontent among the peasants>. When among is
automatically chosen for more than two, English idiom may be strained <a
worthy book that nevertheless falls among many stools -- John Simon> <the
author alternates among mod slang, clichés and quotes from literary
giants -- A. H. Johnston>.
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Reporting from warm and humid Tampa, Florida home of the winners of the
2004 Stanley Cup and the Devil Rays who have the best record in baseball
for the past month,
--Edwin Clark
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