Re: Math and music

From: David Webber (dave_at_musical.demon.co.uk)
Date: 10/14/04 

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:24:12 +0100

"Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaughter@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10msim523fq9f86@corp.supernews.com...

> Well, I personally believe that mathematics is more prevalent than
> that.

Sorry I was referring to its application to music theory.

> Mathematics is the language of nature, just cause no one speaks it
> well doesn't mean that its not there.

Well I speak it *quite* well - at least the applied dialect. I have
a PhD in it and make a fair part of my living from it.

> Math is all about patterns. Without patterns, you couldn't make
> sense of the world.

Absolutlely.

> Your brain looks for the patterns to reduce the complexity. This
> is learning the language of math... learning how the world works.
> This is why we are human. While I do think there is a theory
> about music that can be useful in making good music, I don't think
> we are even near the lvl were we can begin to understand whats
> truely going on. Maybe one day, but will probably be awhile.

I think with music we can. Marrying general relativity and quantum
mechanics is a slightly harder problem though.

> well, since I came from a scientific background, I figured
> "theory" ment scientific theory.

It's natural. I used to be annoyed by musicians calling it a
"theory", butthese days I find few words which have a single
definite meaning as used by everyone. Even easy ones like "dog".

> Such as when one says "theory of relativity", "theory of quantum
> mechanics", "theory of gravity"... All these theories are
> scienfitic, the "theory of music" is very unscientific, and in my
> opinion, doesn't deserve to be called a theory.

As I say, I used to think like that but I lightened up :-)

> So, when I applied this "theory" to composing, it helped out
> some, but I was no where near what I wanted and what I thought I
> should get out of "learning" the theory. Now, I could have just
> went about it the completely wrong way. But I'm following what
> I've learned(unfortuantely, what I've read... if only books could
> talk). Now, if I would have known that what I'm learning is
> really just some basic guidelines that really don't hold much
> water, then maybe I would have not been so confident that if I
> learn all those rules they presented, then tried to apply them,
> that I would sound good.

I have a lovely book on harmony with all the classic "rules" very
clearly set out. I keep it because it is so clear. It was written
in 1894...

>... Those rules are useless by themselfs.

...and so I don't find it too hard to tell myself that I shouldn't
expect them to apply to Charlie Mingus :-)

> Music is a listening art,

Enough to say its an art. Which means definitively that the rules
don't define it :-)

> and if you don't listen and figure out where those rules came from
> and in what context they are mainly used, then you probably won't
> get very far.

More than Probably :-)

>> It certainly helps to be able to hear the effect of different
>> harmonies, but for that it is surely not necessary to become a
>> pianist! If it were, then there would be no jazz musicians on
>> any instrument who were not also accomplished pianists!
>
> Well, its not neccessary, but it helps. Its much easier to sit
> down at a piano and work out different harmonic concepts than it
> is on a flute or a violin.

I have to confess that my interest in harmony was greatly increased
when I was (futilely as it turns out) trying to learn the guitar
when I was a teenager. I couldn't remember all those chord shapes,
and found that with a little understanding, I could work them out.
:-)

But these days its a useful guide when improvising with the jazz
band, and when arranging music (despite absolutely abyssmal keyboard
skills!).

> Also, since the piano is layed out in a linear way, its easier to
> conceptalize on the paino. Chord and scales are very easy to see
> as compared to most other instruments.

That is true. I have nothing against the piano - I just don't think
you have to go as far as learning to play the bloody thing if your
muse lies elewhere :-)

Dave 

--
David Webber
Author MOZART the music processor for Windows - 
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see 
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mzusers/mailinglist.htm