Re: Question about an alternate abiotic origin of Martian "blueberries"

From: jonathan (Write_at_Instead.com)
Date: 12/05/04 

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 14:50:10 -0500

"Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
news:41b36864$0$76824$edfadb0f@dread14.news.tele.dk...

>
> Jonathan, make another dash for your freedom of speach, but don't use 'we' anywhere,
***!

This is when it's clear I've won the debate! The opponent
leaves frustrated, angry and acting like a fourth grader.

Jonathan

s

>
>
>
> "jonathan" <Write@Instead.com> skrev i en meddelelse news:41b32f5d_4@127.0.0.1...
> >
> > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > news:41b2f44a$0$149$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk...
> > >
> > > "jonathan" <Write@Instead.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:41b1a2a1$1_4@127.0.0.1...
> > > >
> > > > "Carsten Troelsgaard" <carsten.troelsgaard@mail.dk> wrote in message
> > > > news:41b15f2a$0$126$edfadb0f@dread14.news.tele.dk...
> > > > >
> >
> > > >
> > > > It's important to keep in mind the mineralogy and environmental
> > > > context at work.
> > >
> > > Do that. I've commented your misconseptions in that consern elsewhere.
> > >
> > > > "The nature of coarse-grained crystalline hematite and its implications
> > > > for the early environment of Mars"
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > > "The Thermal Emission Spectrometer (TES) on the Mars Global Surveyor
spacecraft
> > > > has detected deposits of coarse-grained, gray crys-talline hematite in Sinus
> > > > Meridiani, Aram Chaos, and Vallis Marineris. We argue that the key to the
origin
> > > > of gray hematite is that it requires crystallization at temperatures in excess
of
> > > > about 100?C. We discuss thermal crystallization (1) as diagenesis at a depth
> > > > of a few kilometers of sediments originally formed in low-temperature waters,
> > > > or (2) as precipitation from hydrothermal solution."
> > > >
http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~davidc/papers_mine/Catling_Moore2003Icarus.pdf
> > >
> > > Thus not biologically mediated?
> > > You'r improving your standpoints.
> >
> >
> > To quote Nasa's leading astrobiologist
> >
> > "Indeed, given the intense impact and volcanic
> > activity that characterized the planet at this time, the development
> > of long-lived hydrothermal systems was likely widespread-
> > duplicating many of the important conditions that are thought
> > to have given rise to life on Earth (Farmer 1996)."
> > http://geology.asu.edu/jfarmer/pubs/pdfs/marspolarsci.pdf
> >
> >
> > Which means the context is one ideal for development
> > of the simplest type of life on earth. Which is thought
> > to be bacteria. And anaerobic bacteria tends to leave
> > behind lots of iron and sulfates. Also they tend to
> > form laminated ...sedimentary...structures full of
> > spherical shapes.
> >
> > The context is clearly habitable for life, that is
> > no longer in dispute.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > To quote from the paper:
> > >
> > > "In this case, merely to view Mars with the
> > > naked eye and to see its color would be to detect signs of
> > > ancient life, which would be a curious conclusion from our
> > > elaborate space exploration efforts."
> >
> >
> > This implies the naked eye is incapable of seeing signs
> > of life. That is absurd, the statement limits the 'eye' to
> > color only, a very limited subset of visible evidence.
> > The eye can juggle countless different aspects at
> > once, and if enough are consistent with life why
> > not say so? It is they that need the lawyer-life
> > level of proof for their awards and grants...
> > ....we do not.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > The paper may have a good point as to the genesis of hematite in Aram Chaos, but
the
> > environment >in the Meridiani has later turned out to be sedimentary (note the
> > following quote
> > >from the paper:)
> >
> >
> > The quote says nothing except for future expectations.
> > There is nothing inconsistent about finely laminated
> > sedimentary rocks and stromatolites. Nothing
> > at all, in fact the two are often confused for
> > each other. Combined with the warm mineral
> > rich water of hydrothermal systems and the minerals
> > found there, the context is clearly favorable
> > for biology.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > "A close-up view of the gray hematite crystals on Mars
> > > (e.g., with a microscopic imager or other camera) will
> > > help distinguish petrological features such as bedding,
> > > veining, or matrix structure. Veins, fracture fillings, and
> > > clast or wall coatings provide common evidence of fluid
> > > motion. We expect such features on Mars if the origin
> > > of the gray hematite is hydrothermal."
> > >
> > > > Then take a look at this wonderful pic
> > > > http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/2004/11/27/
> > > > The ripples are clearly formed by water
> > >
> > > > since they are aligned
> > > > in many different directions and follow the path water
> > > > would take.
> > >
> > > > So the context should be that warm mineral-rich water flows out from
> > > > underground periodically.
> > > > Which is an ideal....let me say that
> > > > again....IDEAL context for life. Combined with these mysterious
> > > > spheres that have obviously 'grown' in place, and here's the
> > > > big clue... are little copies of each other.
> > >
> > > > Geology doesn't reproduce itself so nicely, neatly and
> > > > repetitively. Maybe in a small area or two it will, but
> > > > Meridiani covers " an area several times larger than
> > > > all the sedimentary rock exposures of northern Arizona,
> > > > New Mexico, and eastern Utah,"
> > > >
> > > > Everywhere that has dark soil at Meridiani has those spheres
> > > > as they make the soil dark. There is dark soil all over Mars
> > > > and not coincidentally, always on the floor of canyons
> > > > and craters or other places water would stand.
> > > >
> > > > http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/canyons/PIA02398.html
> > > > http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/sanddunes/PIA01695.html
> > > > http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/5_27_98_agu_release/7707rel.gif
> > >
> > > I'll crosspost this to sci.math. I'm sure that your collegues would like to
know.
> > >
> > > > And we have another mystery, all those fine laminations
> > > > in the sedimentary rock. Countless laminations that are
> > > > perfectly uniform in thickness, denoting a highly repetitive
> > > > process such as tides, seasons etc.
> > > >
> >
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/p/280/1P153040668EFF37LJP2443L2M1.HTML
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Laboratory cultures of calcifying biomicrospheres generate ooids -
> > > > A contribution to the origin of oolites"
> > > >
> > > > Abstract
> > > >
> > > > "The in vitro production of ooid-like structures as possible precursors of
> > > > oolites has been observed in laboratory cultures of spherical microbial
> > > > communities isolated from the Wadden Sea (North Sea)."
> > > >
> > > > Introduction
> > > >
> > > > "Precipitation of calcium carbonate is widespread in microbial communities
> > > > forming biofilms and microbial mats. The laminated structure of these
communities
> > > > consists of layers of carbonate which outlast the microbial colony that
produced
> > > > them. Fossilized remains of these communities in which particles of other
> > > > sediment are also included are known as stromatolites. They have a long fossil
> > > > record since early Proterozoic and still flourish in particular in the reefs
of
> > > > the Bahamas and Australia (e.g. Visscher et alii, 2002). "
> > > >
> > > > .........
> > > > Here's the Bahamas guys
> > > > http://www.theflyingcircus.com/stella_maris.html
> > > > Here's Mars
> > > >
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/1/n/119/1N138744629EFF2809P1987R0M1.JPG
> > > > ............
> > > >
> > > > "The typical stromatolitic structure is laminated. Each lamina represents a
> > horizon
> > > > of former microbial biofilm or mat (Kalkowsky, 1908). Associated mineral
> > > > particles (precipitates and detrital grains) are overgrown and sometimes
entirely
> > > > coated by microbial assemblages (Riding and Awramik, 2000). Small (mm size),
> > > > spherical to oval concentrically laminated carbonate bodies or aggregates,
which
> > > > form in shallow tropical seas are called ooids and are known to become
> > > > consolidated into rocks called oolitic limestones (oolith, Rogenstein;
Kalkowsky,
> > > > 1908). The genesis of ooid grains is still enigmatic. The alternative
explanations
> > > > are confronted along the lines of predominantly abiotic vs. biogenic origin of
> > > > ooid grains and the associated carbonate precipitates."
> > > > http://paleopolis.rediris.es/cg/CG2004_L03/
> >
> > >
> > > The 'perfectly uniform lamina' you refer to carry structural evidence of a
fluvial
> > environment. If
> > > it was laminated due to bacterial film or stromatolites, we would have told you.
> >
> >
> > The sedimentary rock extends across the plains of Meridiani
> > to the horizon. This was a sea, not a river. In any event that
> > does not at all contradict the notion of microbial mats.
> > I don't understand why anything you've said refutes my
> > post in the slightest.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > From the standpoint of geology, nothing at Meridiani
> > > > 'fits nicely' with earth analogs.
> > >
> > > What do you know about that?
> >
> >
> > Well. the geologists have yet to identify a single
> > rock at Meridiani...not a one. Saying they're
> > sedimentary is to state the obvious and generic.
> > The Nasa geologists embarrassed themselves so
> > badly a peer review board was rushed in to save
> > the day...which they did not. And now they've
> > been replaced by astrobiologists such as Dr Farmer.
> >
> > It's obvious that geology hasn't succeeded at all
> > in explaining Meridiani... in fact the attempt was
> > a fiasco for Nasa. Why do you think Nasa suddenly
> > stopped giving science interpretations a few months
> > back??? Because the geologists were embarrassing
> > themselves and Nasa.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > From a biological
> > > > perspective...everything...at Meridianis fits nicely.
> > >
> > > Ok, we'll put sci.bio.misc on the line too
> >
> >
> > Put Nasa's very last update there instead.............
> >
> > "Conditions On Vast Plain on Mars Could Have Been Suitable For Life"
> > http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Dec04/Science.Mars.deb.html
> >
> > Conditions on vast plain on Mars could have been suitable for life,
> > Cornell rover scientist Squyres states in special Science issue
> >
> > FOR RELEASE: Dec. 2, 2004
> >
> >
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > s
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Why do we deny the obvious, and not just let the evidence
> > > > take us where it will?
> > >
> > > sigh
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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