Re: JSH: Math society against amateurs

From: David Einstein (Deinst_at_world.std.com)
Date: 01/18/05 

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:05:54 -0500

I should not be responding, but the worlds charities need my Carmody
contributions.

jstevh@msn.com wrote:
> My latest research is on factoring integers.
>
> But if you do much of an Internet search you will be told that I am a
> math crank claiming to have proven Fermat's Last Theorem.
>
> Also, consider that as of now I have a paper, and a really basic Java
> program implementing my factoring research showing that it DOES factor,
> though at this point my program doesn't factor everything, and I don't
> know exactly why.
>
> Basic research is needed.
>
> Now what do you think the reaction of math society will be?
>
> My guess is, quiet. While you'll see a few people on sci.math who will
> berate my research or me, and act like it's all just crap.
>
> And, oh yeah, the webpages will just keep saying I'm a math crank who
> claims to have proven Fermat's Last Theorem!!!
>
> Math society cheats. Some of you may believe that it's just me. You
> may rationalize that mathematicians don't like me because of nasty
> things I've said about them and their society, like in this post, so
> they ignore me for that reason and it's my fault.
>
> But I've checked. Most mathematicians haven't even heard of me. Or
> couldn't care less about what I say on Usenet. They just don't keep up
> with sci.math, as it's not like they think much of Usenet or this
> newsgroup.
>
> They ignore my research when I send it to them, just the same. I'll
> get a polite reply, or maybe an offer of help, and then quiet.
>
> That's easy to explain with ideas that have no practical value, but
> here we're talking about factoring.
>
> Supposedly, mathematicians care about factoring, and you should if you
> have any sense as THEY claim it's such a hard problem to factor large
> numbers that the world's security can be built on it, but THEY also
> claim to value pure and basic research, but if you'll look around you
> can't find a single amateur mathematician being noted.

You do not look very hard. I, whose credentials are much worse than
yours, have had no trouble attracting notice from mathematicians, and
there are many more active and competent amateurs than I. I suspect
that your problem is more that you have nothing to say, and are not
particularly good at saying it.

I suspect that the number of amateur mathematicians is increasing
because while one can make a bit more money wrting software than one can
doing mathematics, one cannot completely shake the love of solving
problems.
>
> The professional mathematicians claim that's because there are none
> worth noting.

Can you produce any evidence of this claim. Quotes claiming that none
of your contributions are not noting lends no support to the claim.
>
> They claim that all the mathematics reachable by an amateur has been
> found and that only the professionals can now make major results.

Again, do you have any evidence of this?

>
> It's very convenient for them, now isn't it?

You are the one who seems to be making specious arguments for his own
convenience.

>
> You believe in them, so if professional mathematicians ignore a result,
> and some guy whining about it is labeled a "crank", "kook" or
> "crackpot" you just chuckle to yourself about the nut, if anything, and
> go on your way, confident in your faith in the real geniuses...the
> professional mathematicians.

In your case, it is really easy for people to make up their own minds.
Despite your best efforts to destroy incriminating evidence
>
> But I have an idea I call surrogate factoring which you won't find in a
> textbook. It mostly uses basic algebra, and I have a program that at
> least it does at times work:

How quickly does it factor a random 80 digit integer
>
> See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sufactor/
>
> Notice that I make claims with proof: a math paper outlining a theory,
> and a program with a quick implementation of it to check that theory.
>
> If you are naive you will still believe that mathematicians would
> welcome an amateur with interesting discoveries, but notice what
> happens here.

I see no evidence of an amatuer with an interesting discovery.
>
> Discoveries from amateurs threaten the professionals, so they ignore
> them, no matter what they may be, unless they can downplay them as
> hardly worth mentioning.
>
> Professional mathematicians protect their long and arduous system for
> getting a math Ph.D, by asserting that only people who go through it
> can make math discoveries of note, and then they simply squash any
> results that disprove their assertion, while continuing to take public
> funds.

I see no evidence of that.
>
> It's about the money. Professional mathematicians for the most part
> LIVE off public funds, while quite a few do work at private companies,
> but they are usually there primarly because of their degrees.

Again, I do not think so. I know noting of academia, but in private
industry a degree is useful but not necessary to get hired, but wont
keep you employed for more than a month or so.
>
> Amateurs able to make major discoveries, add to the body of mathematics
> at a basic level, without those degrees, are a threat, and their
> research is ignored.

Again, I see no evidence of that.
>
> Time will tell here with this research as factoring IS a major area.

I'm sure it will.
>
> But I want you to see how math society behaves, as my guess is that
> they will be dragged kicking and screaming--at the end as for now they
> are doing their passive-aggressive stay quiet routine--into
> acknowledging ANY math research by a modern amateur mathematician,
> including mine.

Check out Erhart reciprocity (I am sure that there are other actve areas
of current mathematical research started by amateurs, but that is the
one that I know.)
>
> Leaving me stuck with those who think it fun to kick at me in posts or
> on webpages, which will claim that I'm pestering the sci.math newsgroup
> about, you gueesed it, Fermat's Last Theorem.

No you are pestering sci.math because they will listen to you. It is
not much, but it is the best that you can do.
>
> These people aren't even trying, but you people BELIEVE in
> mathematicians.
>
> You are true believers so they keep getting away with it.
> And we all pay the price.
>
>
> James Harris
>

Relevant Pages

  • JSH: Math society against amateurs
    ... My latest research is on factoring integers. ... Now what do you think the reaction of math society will be? ... Most mathematicians haven't even heard of me. ... You believe in them, so if professional mathematicians ignore a result, ...
    (sci.math)
  • Re: A hyperbolic solution
    ... so you have the hyperbloid, ... That may sound like nothing you've ever heard of for factoring ... They like to make things personal on Usenet in the math and sciences ... So--mainstream mathematicians care about the source and you know and I ...
    (sci.crypt)
  • Re: JSH: Contradictory behavior, issue of math fraud
    ... In its current version surrogate factoring is too slow to be ... TWICE AS SLOW AS RANDOM GUESSING. ... If practicality is all that matters then acknowledge that "pure math" ... But mathematicians have said it's not important, ...
    (sci.math)
  • Re: Math society against amateurs
    ... > math crank claiming to have proven Fermat's Last Theorem. ... Most mathematicians haven't even heard of me. ... > can't find a single amateur mathematician being noted. ... > You believe in them, so if professional mathematicians ignore a result, ...
    (sci.math)
  • Re: JSH: Contradictory behavior, issue of math fraud
    ... is not a hard problem after all, then how can mathematicians who not ... and that math journals routinely publish false papers!!! ... fraction of them were by the editor himself. ... implement your many variants of surrogate factoring. ...
    (sci.math)