Re: Epistemology 201: The Science of Science

From: Lester Zick (lesterDELzick_at_worldnet.att.net)
Date: 03/10/05 

Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:34:49 GMT

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 10:16:21 -0500, "robert j. kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.net> in comp.ai.philosophy wrote:

>
>
>Tony Orlow (aeo6) wrote:
>> Never mind, Lester. Bob is like a rock, and can't conceive of anything less
>> concrete than himself. For some reason, he has an aversion to the idea of
>> anything that isn't physical. I think he must have been repeatedly hit as a
>> child with a ruler by a nun chanting "Holy Spirit", or something, to hate the
>> non-physical so much. If he can't see the difference between an idea and an
>> object, that there is no direct relationship between an idea and the dimensions
>> of space, time, matter and energy, then perhaps he just can't. It's amazing
>> that he is so into mathematics as a mental invention, and draws such a
>> distinction between our formulas and what might be called natural law that
>> causes things to happen, and yet doesn't see that the very mathematical
>> formulas he specializes in inventing are uniquely mental things, and not
>> physical objects.
>
>I have no quarrel with useful abstractions. We deploy useful fictions
>every day in many ways to carry out our business. If one wishes to use
>the term Mind in an explicitly metaphorical way, I have no strong
>objection. It is the reification of the Fairy Tale I object to. As soon
>as "mental diseases" are treated as thought there were a substantial
>Mind that is sick, we are in trouble. That why various drugs to treat
>"mental diseases" were developed. Verbal therapies theretofore emplyed
>are on the same level as driving out evil spirts and excorcising demons.
>
>Bob Kolker
>
>>
>> Bob, are mathematical formulas physical objects?
>
>The formulas are physical, but the ideas they denote are not.
>Mathematics is useful fiction (a point I have made dozens of times). Our
>entire technology has been built on mathematical fictions. Without
>differential equations and complex variables we would be lighting our
>homes with burning brands and we would have power sources no more
>capable than low pressure steam engines with leaky pistons. That is as
>good as it gets without mathematics. Most likely we would be no more
>technologically advanced over all than the Roman Empire with some steam
>locomotives thrown in.
>
>So do not accuse me of rejecting abstract entities which have no
>empirical counterparts. I do not do so. I reject the idea of regarding
>abstract notions as concretely real. A cinder block in the rough shape
>of a cube is real. The mathematical cube which is the idealization of
>the shape of the cinderbloack is NOT real, but it is a handy dandy idea
>just the same.

All this is fascinating, Bob. You wave your hands one way but claim
you're waving them another. I doubt anyone in the history of the
universe ever claimed the mind was a concrete block. Your problem is
not that the mind and mental effects aren't concrete blocks but that
you cannot say what they are that isn't concrete that you like to use
anyway because they allow us to manipulate concrete blocks but that
you call fictions because you prefer to deny the existence of anything
you can't sit on. I hope this makes my objections to you concrete.

Regards - Lester

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Epistemology 201: The Science of Science
    ... >> Never mind, Lester. ... Bob is like a rock, and can't conceive of anything less ... >Mathematics is useful fiction. ... not that the mind and mental effects aren't concrete blocks but that ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Epistemology 201: The Science of Science
    ... >> Never mind, Lester. ... Bob is like a rock, and can't conceive of anything less ... >Mathematics is useful fiction. ... not that the mind and mental effects aren't concrete blocks but that ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Epistemology 201: The Science of Science
    ... > Never mind, Lester. ... as "mental diseases" are treated as thought there were a substantial ... Bob Kolker ... Mathematics is useful fiction. ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: Epistemology 201: The Science of Science
    ... > Never mind, Lester. ... as "mental diseases" are treated as thought there were a substantial ... Bob Kolker ... Mathematics is useful fiction. ...
    (sci.physics)
  • Re: Epistemology 201: The Science of Science
    ... > Never mind, Lester. ... as "mental diseases" are treated as thought there were a substantial ... Bob Kolker ... Mathematics is useful fiction. ...
    (sci.math)