Re: Learning consensus


<jstevh@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1148190726.619526.47190@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Reality of "pure math" is that you depend on some other person saying
an argument is correct.

That's just fact.


True... and your point is? Everything in life depends on what people think.
All of humanity is defined by humanity itself. There is no way out of this
dilemna as far as anyone knows. You cannot know more or less than you know.
All life is a tautological contradition.

You are not making some profound statement...

AND BTW, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MATH OR PURE MATH OR ANYTHING
SCIENTIFIC.


In other areas where mathematics has application, it doesn't matter who
agrees or does not agree with the math as if it works, it works.


nope. What work is also a consensus.

Think about it.


Hmm... Maybe you should think about it?

My suggestion to you is that students who specialize in "pure math"
areas, learn that consensus is all that matters because it IS all that
matters in their world.


Ofcourse... but this has nothing to do with math... a baby learns to live by
consensus.... your point is? Have you ever thought about why you think like
you do? Chances are its because your parents taught you to think like
that... how did they learn to think that way?

If enough other mathematicians say they are right in that world, then
by that society's rules, they are right.


Maybe... but mathematics seems very different from music or literature,
etc... Math is based in logic... which is something that seems to escape
you. Logic may or may not have been created by consensus but it is the only
formulation of a body of knowledge that has not been shown by statistical
assesment to have any potential flaws. Out of all the humans that have been
on this planet, probably 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999% have
had the SAME logic. Sure some people are better at it than others and many
do make logical mistakes, but time and again everyone ends up understanding
there errors with just a little effort. Its strange that you fall in to the
0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of people that have
different logic(actually You have the same(99.99%) logic all of us but your
problem is that you refuse to put in the effort to fix your mistakes.)


If enough other mathematicians say you are wrong, in that world, then
by that society's rules, you are wrong.


Maybe... if thats the case then you are still wrong.

It is a destructive force the need for consensus and makes the current
math field in "pure math" a democracy.


Well, this is your opinion and sense you don't have consensus you are
obviously wrong about this too.

Your argument is that "I think everyone is calling this color blue when
infact I know it is red". In fact if you want to do anything in life you
must go with the flow. You cannot preach to us how we should all believe
what you believe because it makes no sense... even if it is correct. Its a
similar act as trying to convince all the religous people that there
religion is crap(atleast the basis for it). They refuse to abide by logic
and hence it is impossible to argue with them... similar to the problem you
have with us and we have with you.


Sure they talk about mathematical proof, but just toss that up as a
phrase that sounds good.


nope. This is isn't politics. Why? Because one can have independent
confirmations of results. You can have two completely seperated people
agree on the same thing... and it never fails... when two people do happen
to disagree then it has always been shown that one has been wrong by a 3rd
person and that person who was wrong will ADMIT IT!

The difference between mathematics and any other area is that mathematicians
are the only group of people who believe that being right is the the most
important thing in the world... this means that if one lies to be right then
they are really wrong and hence not right and not a mathematician.

But your question is basically a philosophical one about what is right and
wrong. Are you here to do mathematics or philosophy?

Reality is acceptance depends on what people SAY versus in applied
mathematics, who cares what people say?

In applied mathematics, it just has to work.


There is no such thing as pure mathematics... its just an arbitrary division
of mathematics in general... Whats pure to one person is applied to
another. Some people think calculus is pure math while others think its
applied. Its all about what you are doing it for. If you do it for fun
then its pure and if you do it for "work"(to accomplish something external)
then its applied.

That explains a lot of what I go through on this newsgroup, and how I
can present VERY simple and basic arguments relying on just a bit of
algebra, and people lie about them, and get CONSENSUS from the group,
in defiance of even basic mathematics.


Nope. In fact you are just an idiot which has been proven time and again.
All crazy people will say they are not the ones that are crazy but everyone
else is. By definition a crazy person is one who is in the minority... if
tomorrow everything became crazy would they still be crazy?

That's how they're taught.


How were you taught? When you were a baby didn't you learn things? How? by
osmosis? In fact all of humanity is a "consensus". No one knows what
reality is or how it was formed and what is really real and what is not or
if it really matters.

I suggest that if you want to do philosophy that you go hang out in
alt.philosophy. You are not doing mathematics here though. Math is a
language just like anything else. Learn it and then maybe you won't have
such a hard time communicating with us.


I think all mathematicians hold mathematics as an innate structure that
doesn't change for anything. Its sorta like we are exploring a world
through a telescope... we can only see into it and jott down the results.
If it turns out that we are actually creating the world we are seeing then
it doesn't matter much.... but nothing really matters much anyways. We
assume it is correct because to assume it is not means nothing.

Basicaly your argument is crap though because even if it is true then it
means nothing... there is no way to prove it is true(well, probably) and
hence its a waste of pursue.

Basicaly you need to statistically determine what you think reality is...
this is what normal humans do and they all tend to have very similar
results. There are a few, like you, who get totally different results, maybe
from a physiological problem and can't understand why everyone else gets
different results.

Therefor either you must come to our side or we must go to your side if we
all want to get along. Unfortunately we out number you and hence the
likelyhood of you being right is pretty slim... unless you can change that
by coming into our world and making us realize we are wrong you won't get
anywhere...

Its similar to how a religious person claims that god exists yet can never
produce real tangible fact. He claims this and that and sometimes puts up a
pretty good argument... but there are many more "facts" against the
existance of god(atleast the gods of the major religions). Am I suppose to
believe him just beacause he says I should? I don't think so.

In fact you are just like this.... you claim things but cannot prove them.
You claim this and that and you might even think they are facts... but facts
are relative and whats a fact to you might not be to anyone else. Ofcourse
mathematical facts are much more factual than anything else(atleast to a
mathematician).

Whats more probable is that you just want to have people believe what you
believe so you feel like your beliefs have worth. Just like a religious
person. You need to convert people to believe what you believe so you have
more of a consenses on reality than the next guy. You think that if
everyone believes what you believe then you must be right.

Fortunately this doesn't seem like the way the world works. We have
something called mathematics which doesn't change just cause someone changes
there beliefs about something.

Anyways, I'm tired of talking about this ***... you need to get off this
*** if you want to do some "real" mathematics.... who gives a *** if its a
consensus or not? The fact is that you want everyone to believe you are
right because you have some egoistic psychosis and probably because your to
lazy to spend any time learning something from someone else because you
think everyone is trying to steal your ideas.







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