Re: Can Events of Zero Probability Happen?

Shubee wrote:
On Jan 14, 6:12 am, David C. Ullrich <ullr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:37:23 -0800 (PST), Shubee <e.Shu...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Sure, on the face of it, it seems possible to reason with a physicist
that believes that conceptualizing events that occur with zero
probability is unfathomable. The problem is, he explicitly said that
even an event of incredibly small probability can't happen.

[...]

Oh No's answer "Yes, but," when you mod out all the weasel words in
the whole paragraph, clearly affirms my claim that Oh No "explicitly
said that even an event of incredibly small probability can't happen."

Yes it is. Suppose I tell you that I was watching a glass
of water the other day, and with no outside energy applied
it just happened that half of it froze solid while the other
half boiled away. Would you believe me?

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics.foundations/msg/3d5630f2762edce6

David, thank you for bringing up this very familiar illustration in
quantum physics. You have proven my point. The accepted and widely
acknowledged answer by the experts in quantum physics is that the
event that you described can happen, although with fantastically
small, non-zero probability.

Now, please consider the meaning of this amusing curiosity. When
mainstream physicists interpret quantum physics and assert that
miraculous events can happen in a glass of water, the meaning of
fantastically small probability is not disputed. When I ask about the
quantum mechanical chances for the Red Sea to part (Exodus 14:21) and
for a man to be fully formed out of the inanimate material of the
earth in a single day (Genesis 2:7), then suddenly those events call
into question the meaning of fantastically small probabilities.

Shubee
http://www.everythingimportant.org/creationism


It's not clear how much of Genesis is part of the miracle of creation,
but Chapter 1 v. 16:

(16) "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

(The earth was created before). In any case, what are the chances
in QM of a standard miraculous event?

What I'm not sure about is what happens to the wave function of the
world when there is an event...

I think you wrote you don't believe in hidden variable theories.

AFAIK, there are at least three "respectable" ideas:

- The collapse of the wave function. ("It just happens")
- Decoherence ( state superposition -> non-superposed through
interaction with outside world)
- many worlds ( the wave function doesn't collapse, dead
Schroedinger cats exist just like their
live counterparts, but don't interact).

The Wikipedia article has quotes from Weinberg, Hawking and Penrose:
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat >

If one believes the universe only has one go, ever, then the
glass of water curiosity could happen, or not happen, and
man would be around. If the coming of man is thought
of as exceedingly improbable, then it does seem strange that
man is around. But one unanswered question is the number of
bits needed to describe the wave function "at one time".

But with respect to parting of the Red Sea, I put it in the
same category as the glass of water event. Both possible, under
the laws of chance.

Also, I don't believe today's physics is the end of the story.
Around 1900, there was the question of where the sun got its
energy from. Geological evidence of earth being hundreds of millions
of years old didn't square with the thermodynamics of a hot sun cooling
down. The hot sun would be cold in too few millions of years.
Henri Poincaré wrote about the conflicting evidence. He wrote
that physics used math., so made reliable predictions (including
the time for the sun to become cold) and pointed out
that geology then proceeded in many cases by analogy. But he
didn't come to any conclusion (e.g.: the geologists are wrong).

So I'd say current understanding allows tons of molecules to all at once
go one way , or lose kinetic energy to other molecules gain, so
the Red Sea parting and the glass of water anomaly are both
possible. What the understanding will be in hundreds of years is
anybody's guess.

David Bernier

.

Relevant Pages

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  • Re: Can Events of Zero Probability Happen?
    ... even an event of incredibly small probability can't happen. ... If events of zero probability can happen, ... Please note the meaning of the physicist's whole paragraph in response ... acknowledged answer by the experts in quantum physics is that the ...
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  • Re: Can Events of Zero Probability Happen?
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  • Re: Can Events of Zero Probability Happen?
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