Re: there are still drives that talk with you

galathaea wrote :

Angus Rodgers <twir...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
galathaea <galath...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Angus Rodgers <twir...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I wrote:

For the time being, I'll stick to my theory
that fear is a more
fundamental and powerful motive than laziness
[...]

i always like reading your posts

:-)

Please excuse my lack of response so far. Domestic
pressures have
not let up, and for the last couple of days I
haven't been able to
do any studying. I managed a couple of hours
today. (You might be
mildly pleased to know that a copy of Goldblatt's
/Topoi/ I ordered
arrived on Monday, and I had a look at the
undemanding first couple
of chapters today. No trouble there, but I expect
I will need some
hand-holding soon enough!)

i dislike it when i am in an interaction
that uses or participates in expectations

it makes me anxious and uncomfortable
because it takes away freedoms and controls i enjoy

burdens and expectations take away time

so i haven't wanted to post a quick response

you don't need a quick response either

spend your time on priorities


typical for a female ...

before quasi told me galathaea was a women , "he" was a ' weird guy ' , now it makes more sense :)

most people want to be unique , which ironicly makes them almost identical ...

on the other hand some people think they want to be normal , but that usually just means they want to " fit in the group " , afraid of being ' unique ' in a bad asocial way ...

the social aspect and self-viewpoint are the main reasons and factors for such desires and emotions.

religion may claim to be the solution , but it isnt ; at least not to this ...

it just exploits the related fears and why-questions , which arent the right responses either.



i've had similar fears

a few councilors throughout school
suggested i had subclinical aspergers
and i've taken a few online tests
and i do tend to score just below the clinical
diagnostic level

When I took this test:
<http://aq.server8.org/>

<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html>
the result was:

"Your AQ score:
37
How to interpret your AQ score
0--10 low
11--22 average
(most women score about 15, and most men
score about 17)
23--31 above average
32--50 very high
(most people with Asperger Syndrome or
high functioning
autism score about 35)
50 maximum"

(So at least I'm not Rain Man.)

and i get 31

i could get close to 50 or 0
because i think i understand what they are measuring
enough for some control
(i got 10 and 44 when trying)

my thoughts
were my land
that i controlled

that others existed
would sometimes make me anxious
fearful and pained
because it disturbed my controlled space

My space became invaded round about 1972, and I've
never regained
it, but I get glimpses of that "land" - which
perhaps is what you
mean about drives talking with me?

i didn't mean to hint about specific drives
i meant something more obvious

we have 2 major symbological working sets
and a number of minor ones

one major one is the "inner voice"

we have subvocal innervations
that let us send vocalisation patterns
down the start of the common speech pathways
and divert them to an inner interpretive path
much like an inner ear

it's an internal loop that allows symbol storage
a working set or short-term memory

the other major one is the "inner projector"

innervations into the optic nerve
allow the input of visual patterns
into the interpretive system of our sight

we have similar innervations in most senses
including hunger
thermoception
nociception
...
but the skill of symbology of those systems
are usually of less computational capability

these systems interact with recall systems
to provide a fundamental symbol manipulating system

the entire system is controlled by drives

drives typically come from the limbic system

drives are the motives of action
they are fears and hungers and angers and attractions

the interactions with these working sets
is very intricate and with much substructure
and there is communication both directions

the inner voice affects drives
and the drives move the inner voice

making pretty little models of behaviors
is a great solitary game
that can help keep the fear at bay

Nothing keeps it at bay, for me, except: (a)
studying mathematics
(something I have only begun to find out how to do
properly since
about 2004), and (b) not being ashamed of my
sexuality (something
I have scarcely begun to learn about). Mostly I'm
scared witless.


everyone has some burden of control upon them

i like how the buddhists acknowledge this so
honestly

I haven't found my religion yet, but I've found
that I need one.

i didn't mean to imply i'm a buddhist

i just think the gautama was pretty smart guy
one of those obsessive modellers
that "went far enough"
to state some very accurate "truths"

particularly about the human psychology of suffering
and the dynamics of burden

but he was still a batty old human

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.buddhism/
msg/e0b28d97e1ea65ab?hl=en


i have never known any gods
i have never witnessed their deeds
so i am certainly no god expert

but
i do know that often when you need a god
even when you really need a helping hand
sometimes when you pray and pray and pray
there is no answer

it has been my experience that there is never an
answer
especially when it is most needed

so if there is a god
i see him as sam-a-el
blind and insane

without reason or purpose

^..^

there are many goddesses
though

they are easy to see
like gaia

superorganisms aren't the type of thing you worship
though

they aren't infallible protectors

they are you
with all your flaws
and me and all mine
and everyone else
with all the limping along the way

looking earnestly at gaia these days
it is clear she is more like a teenage girl
bratty
rebellious
depressed
with a serious smoking problem

gaia is very self destructive of late

drives are controllable
through integrations with the verbal working set

There's a lot you write that I don't understand
(not only the
advanced maths!), but I'd particularly like to know
what this
means. What is "the verbal working set"? And does
this still
have something to do with drives talking?

i hope the description above helps some

but still
even in the greatest exhaustions
at the very limits of physical effort
even then
there are still drives that talk with you

That's quite poetic, even if I don't know what it
means, and
even if I doubt, whatever it means, that it's true
for me.

even when one feels without direction
when every task seems forced upon one
and the reasons are blurred
almost forgotten
even then
if one is making it day-to-day
there are drives talking with them

if one hasn't given everything up
in those last minute shutdowns of no return
and can still will themselves any body movements
there are drives talking with them

even the smallest of motile creatures
when their movements are not all predetermined
but can change
based on some threshold decision
have this symbol-drive-action engine
but with many fewer symbols or computational
al control

these controls
this communication and decision
the computational control of action
is the i
or at least what speaks the word i
inside

my point is that the i in humanity is huge

it could shrink a thousandfold
and still would be immense

that was always an important thing for me to hold on
to
because it reassured me even immense losses
had not yet taken me away

and that fear i had felt
reassured me i still had good drive to live
even if i couldn't feel it all the time

and the fact that my "i" still "was"
made it easier to build myself back up
making simple decisions at first
and slowly
eventually
building on that

it wasn't perfect
there was a lot of self-pity and self-destruction
but it was an important understanding to me

and i think it is important
life's response to trauma in general

that's just what life is

a labyrinth of decisions

if there is a voice inside
whatever voice
there are drives feeding the process

understanding those drives
helps in figuring out where to go next

it is clear to me that you study things
as deeply as you can
and then start again
do it again

Sisyphus.

that was camus' point

if there is something core that existentialists share
it is probably inside this one myth

progress through ltp

I looked that up. Found it. None the wiser!

next time ;)

when i call james lazy
i do not ignore the signs that he does seem to
have
dopaminergic auto-obsessionary symptoms

narcissistic personality disorder or subclinical
autism
or persecution complex or i-i-i
whatever the dynamic is called in his
presentation of the form

and i do not disagree
some trauma has produced serotonergic signs
that have aggravated his auto-obsessions
to the point of flights to messianic visions
conspiratorial adversaries
"bad things happen to me because i'm so special"
universal power

i see those in his writing
and i see the behaviors
that tell a lot of this dynamic

and when i say lazy
it is meant also to compliment his ability
as i think that not everyone who doesn't pursue
greater mathematics
is actually lazy

some are certainly just uninterested

some people have much lower symbological
obsessions
(though still much greater than most animals)

i call him lazy because i do see capability

but i see very little progress

and from the volume of output
i do not see someone who is so shutdown from
fears
that he cannot do anymore

his drives still talk with him
and he still does much
but look at what he accomplishes
(don't stare too long without eye protection)

when i try to interpret what drives might cause
this output
where he doesn't better himself or feel so much
self-shame
that he would hide from the attacks

That seems crucial: he seems (most of the time) to
have no shame.
(Whereas I seem (most of the time) to have little
else.)

where his counterattacks are so shallow
and at times just playful and trolling
i have come to suspect he actually doesn't have
much of a drive to
math

possibly he does
possibly he really is making an effort
and just isn't very good at making progress

possibly all those fears come back in and stifle
him
and yet his admissions and his approach don't
make sense to me

I hesitate to embark on any kind of JSH-analysis at
the moment
(and it'll cost me, at least 50p), but in a vague
way at least
he reminds me of others I've known ...

i've known a lot of fucked up people

... (ditto) ...

people who aren't even struggling, who've
identified with the
aggressor, who've thought "If you can't beat 'em,
join 'em",
who've gone over to the dark side, and (this seems
to be the
key) seem to derive some real satisfaction from
doing so (his
"act"?) - whereas although I've also given up the
struggle
(identified with the aggressor, gone over to the
dark side,
etc.), I never stopped hurting, never really
enjoyed my "act"
(such as it was), and mostly avoided people, rather
than going
out of my way to engage (and enrage) them.

If there's anything to this at all (and I know it's
pathetically
vague), he's going to have to start hurting (or
hurting more, or
hurting more often) to make any progress.

Whether it's fear (implying some awareness of the
threat of pain,
if not the pain itself) or laziness (somehow
converting the pain,
or its threat, into pleasure?), he's avoiding pain.
And if he's
getting enough pleasure from doing so, it's hard to
see him
giving up the pleasure for what might seem
(consciously or not)
to be only a world of pain. And, speaking as one
who has lived
mostly in a world of pain (that kind of pain - I've
had an easy
ride through life, in many other ways), I'm not
sure I'd advise
him to make the trade, if he's only going to be
left alone with
his pain.

(My mind's not really working clearly enough to
pursue this.
I'll pay my 50p, in a moment, and shut up.)

i agree the solution involves some pain
no matter the solution

there are errors and imperfections everywhere

inside and outside
noises and initial conditions
that cause
at times
pain

pretending doesn't stop the pain
it just alters the pain into schisms and phobias
which have dissonance with the perceived

i think i understand your point
that if he acts in this way
it comes from some drive he fulfills
but i think he often also expresses other drives
and frustrations that express other desires

the technological problem becomes
how to satisfy these frustrations
through some kind of learning process

learning processes in general are painful

they tear apart past conceptions
wrong understandings
in the onslaught of new information

this destruction of past information by new
information
through the rewriting of models
is
i suspect
a dual expression of the noise paradox

i've always felt the noise paradox
was intimately related to pain

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.anarchism/msg/d8f73
e64d50abf1b?hl=en

when i read nietzsche on the ubermensch
i see all teachers that guide through the void

the overman goes under
by bringing that which is under
over

it is a movement
a painful movement
through ignorance
by one who has the will

i think james puts a lot of effort into updating
his blog
posting his long posts
interacting in the act

and i think james spends very little time studying
mathematics

i don't think he is serious about it

I'll still disagree with you about that, but it's
all a matter
of semantics. (Words can communicate very well, but
usually only
in carefully negotiated contexts.) "It all depends
what you mean
by ..."

i'm glad you disagree here

it shows you are honest about the facts (recorded
experiences)
and kind

i know i can't prove anything
and most of my attacks are for "dark side"
machinations
but i still think it's the right position for me to
to take

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
galathaea: prankster, fablist, magician, liar

regards

tommy1729
.