Re: American health care best? No...Most expensive? Yes...Ranked 12th

From: Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD (andrew_at_heartmdphd.com)
Date: 07/04/04 

Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 03:11:04 GMT

"Steve Harris sbharris@ROMAN9.netcom.com" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <andrew@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message news:<40E698A8.3554@heartmdphd.com>...
>
> > > Say, maybe we could so something about the violent crime rate by
> > > getting folks with white coats and stethoscopes to let our youth know
> > > that getting shot really hurts, and also is harmful for animals and
> > > other livings things. What do you think?
> >
> > Christ's second commandment would be more effective.
>
> What, you think these gang bangers haven't heard it?
>

Christ is more effective than either you or I in our white coats and stethoscopes. What do you think?

>
>
> > > > > Hey, the fast food and movie industries are big businesses, not
> > > > > necessarily good for the general population. Capitalism gives people
> > > > > what they want, not what's good for them in terms of some parental
> > > > > model.
> > > >
> > > > Capitalism also convinces people that it has what people want.
> > >
> > > COMMENT
> > >
> > > I think you have capitalism confused with advertising. Advertising is
> > > just our word for the wares-display often seen in capitalistic
> > > systems, sure, but advertising is also a part of communism (where it's
> > > merely called something different like "public information": or
> > > "propaganda"),
> >
> > Sorry, Dr. Harris, propaganda in a communist environment does not create
> > markets when there is no free market.
>
> COMMENT:
>
> There is more and more confusion here. This started with you saying
> that "capitalism" convinces people that it has what people want. But
> so do all political systems.

I agree there is more confusion when you blur the distinction between economic systems with political systems.

It is one thing to let people know that you have a better mousetrap to sell more mousetraps.

It is another thing to come up with a catchy jingle or ad campaign to sell more inferior product.

> Or at least, they all try to. None of
> them are perfectly effective. I see no point in you even making the
> comment, when it applies not only to capitalism but also to socialism
> and Communism.
>
> You bring up "free markets" out of the air. Who said anything about
> "free markets." ??

Most people associate advertising with free markets. Are you now claiming that you did not bring up advertising,
Dr. Harris?

> You bring up the term as though it was synonymous
> with capitalism. It's not.

I bring it up because it is associated with advertising.

> Free market implies a market in which
> trades are supervised by some kind of governing trade authority, which
> prevents open theft and also adjudicates and guarantees fairness and
> nonviolent conflict resolution in the case of trade disagreements.

Would suggest you stick with the definition:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=free+market

Main Entry: free market
Function: noun
an economic market operating by free competition

>
> Black markets, however, may be perfectly capitalistic (for example,
> the cocaine market). And black markets also, of course, often
> advertise (that hooker on the street corner with the miniskirt and
> heels).
>

non-sequitur

>
> I never claimed propaganda created free markets, or that hooker's
> miniskirts created free markets. I simply said they were forms of
> advertising. I define advertising as display of goods or services
> that are available. It's perfectly possible to have advertising with
> no market at all, if you're giving something away instead of selling
> it. If the government advertises free cheese, or some rock group
> advertises a free concert, you'll have long lines, but no free market,
> nor indeed any kind of market.
>

It seems that you are back-pedaling.

>
> > > Capitalism has nothing essential to do with advertising per se as part
> > > of its definition-- that's a leftist piece of nonsense. Capitalism is
> > > the system where the means of production are owned privately, end of
> > > story.
> >
> > Free marketeering is part of capitalism, Dr. Harris.
>
> COMMENT:
>
> There is no such word as "marketeering."

Oops. Sorry, I did mean marketing.

> There are marketeers, but
> what they are doing is properly called simply "marketing."
> "Marketeering", particularly when used with black markets, is some
> kind of monstrous construction after the manner of racketeering, and I
> think is being used by Leftists, hoping it will catch on as vaguely
> helping to express the idea that something illegitimate or nasty is
> being done by these marketeers, even if the market in question is not
> illegal. Along the lines of the idea that what I'm doing in my
> business is profiting, but what you're doing is "profiteering." .Which
> means you're getting money faster than I am, and I'm jealous of the
> unfairness of this. <g>.
>
> Marketing in free markets may (or may not) be a part of capitalism,
> but it's not an essential or definitional part (again see the drug
> trade). Even if capititalism wasn't ever seen without free markets,
> that wouldn't mean a thing. All mammals breathe air, but breathing air
> is not part of the definition of what makes an organism a mammal.
> Again, capitalism means the means of production are privately owned.
> What the owners choose to do with those products is up to them, but if
> they choose to tell the public about them in newspapers, that hardly
> means that any other system of production wouldn't be forced to do
> exactly the same. So there's no point in trying to specifically pin
> this practice on capitalism. See the point?
>
> > Though it does not define it, you have to admit that it is a feature of
> > American-style capitalism.
>
> It's a feature of every kind of political system. They show goods and
> services in newspapers and on TV. I guarantee you they do it in Cuba
> and Sweden, and they did it in the old USSR. My point is: so what?
>

You started with the view that "capitalism gives people what they want" and I countered with capitalism using
advertising/marketing to convince people to buy (or eat) what they don't need (creating markets where none
previously existed).

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew 

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
**
Who is the humblest person in the universe?
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