Re: "Statins caused my kidney failure"

From: Zee (zwalanga_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/16/04 

Date: 16 Jul 2004 10:45:34 -0700

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message news:<uIBJc.1566$4L7.946@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Zee" <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:e5f4a9c2.0407150439.60e1336f@posting.google.com...
> > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
> news:<35pJc.520$sr5.152@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
> > > "Zee" <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:e5f4a9c2.0407142121.5ac09a9e@posting.google.com...
> > > > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
> news:<EJhJc.1427$4L7.411@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>...
> > > > > "Zee" <zwalanga@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:e5f4a9c2.0407140915.536f939c@posting.google.com...
> > > > > > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
> news:<GI3Jc.1762$ii.888@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So Bill, I read the following to say:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1.The goal of statin therapy is to reduce the odds of dying of a
> heart
> > > > > > attack or stroke, not just lower cholesterol numbers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2. Despite millions spent on clinical trials, researchers could not
> > > > > > prove lowering cholesterol had any effect on life expectancy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3. Pharmas need only prove to FDA the drug lowers cholesterol.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Someone needs to take a big broom to the FDA. They don't seem to be
> > > > > > doing what you are paying them to do. Not that it's any different
> for
> > > > > > the Aussie, Kiwi or Canuck regulatory bodies.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please note, Bill: Dr. Wright is with the Cochrane Collaboration.
> "Dr.
> > > > > > Wright and his colleagues at the University of British Columbia
> > > > > > contacted the authors of the three trials that did not publish the
> > > > > > number of serious adverse events suffered by their study
> participants.
> > > > > > The reviewers have yet to receive the requested data. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you not see the truth of Wright's reasoning, and think if you
> were
> > > > > > he, or part of his team, you too (with your training) would be just
> as
> > > > > > suspicious?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am. Pityful English major that I am. I am suspicious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I await your correction.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Zee
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok. Here you go. There are numerous reports on statins saving lives.
> But
> even
> > > > > if I take your source, who does not seem to have medical credentials,
> in
> the
> > > > > article you quoted, here is what she says:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Statins clearly benefit diabetics and people with heart disease who
> want
> to
> > > > > avoid a heart attack or stroke, as well as those who have already
> suffered
> one
> > > > > and want to prevent another."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/AlmostEverythingYouNeedtoKnowAboutStatinDrugs.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is just from your source. I quoted another of your souces
> previously
> > > > > which said pretty much the same thing. And I could do more of strongly
> > > > > supporting the argument that statins save lives by strickly sticking
> to
> your
> > > > > sources.
> > > > >
> > > > > I accept the fact that statins can cause problems for people. You seem
> to
> have
> > > > > trouble accept the fact that statins can help a large class of people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The first time you and I ever conversed in this medium you ran me
> > > > down, ridiculed me, cut me to shreds and ended your scathing
> > > > unwarranted attack by calling me a liar.
> > >
> > > I really don't think that is true either. Can you point out where I used
> the
> > > word "liar" with you. I remember calling Sharon a liar, but not you. I
> usually
> > > just say what you are claiming is false. And also provide a reference to
> show
> > > that this was a personal attack. Since I don't know what you are referring
> to,
> > > it is hard to respond.
> > >
> > > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this the same as "decreased overall mortality"?
> >
> > "decreased their *odds* of overall mortality within the *next five
> > years*."
> >
> > If it is, then yes, you are right. I am wrong.
> >
> > I don't mind being wrong Bill. But it seems very important for you to
> > prove me wrong. As TheMattFella pointed out some months ago.
> >
> > As if that was the point. To anything.
> >
> >
> > Zee
>
> The answer to the first part is, yes. But no, it is not important to me to
> prove YOU wrong, in fact painful unless you get nasty. It is important to
> prove your point - that statins do not save lives - wrong using your own
> sources. Not you.
>
> Bill

Bill, those two sentences do not mean the same thing. However, the
crux of this disagreement doesn't not rest on the meaning of those two
sentences.

I do not know if statins save lives. Neither do you. And neither do
the researchers, more to the point, who have said so. As I pointed
out, statins saving one person from heart attack to kill them from
cancer, is not, de facto, saving lives.

I did answer your question some time back about the diabetes article.
I could see "press release" all over it Bill (having written my share)
so I polled my friends, academic physicians all, and answered you.

There are people who say they can take statins without disabling side
effects. I want proof. Keep our friends here in mind, with serious
heart conditions who got very serious symptoms from statins, which
regressed on stopping, which they didn't put down to statins. How many
more aren't speaking up Bill, just here on SMC? Many others have
posted here complaining about muscle pain or cognitive problems. They
didn't clue it to statins, so if you had asked them, would they said,
nope no problem.

If statins *save* you from another heart attck, but kill you from
cancer, or mitochondrial disease, or something else inherent to their
make-up, you haven't been saved.

Have statins saved lives Bill? Just as I cannot take a test to show
statins caused my disability, you cannot take one to show they stopped
your heart attacks, or saved you from death.

I tried to get the Proscrire article for you Bill. But neither MN nor
I have time right now. However, if you go to the Proscrire web site (a
great journal by the way, takes no advertising) there is apparently
some arrangement for a one-time free article.

For a good discussion with your peers Bill go to SMN. There's a good
one brewing there. Google author:tunderbar.

Zee

Zee

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