Re: The Bull*** Parade

From: Jonathan Smith (jonathansmith99_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/18/04 

Date: 18 Jul 2004 07:27:46 -0700

tunderbar@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote in message news:<b550f406.0407161713.5e2be9d9@posting.google.com>...
> hrubin@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote in message news:<cd7cas$460q@odds.stat.purdue.edu>...
> > In article <b550f406.0407150552.44277c17@posting.google.com>,
> > tcomeau <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >"Robert" <Robert@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> > ......................
> >
> > >I'll make it easier for you, I'll give you the names of the major
> > >killer diseases and you give me the name of the drug that has been
> > >developed and is saving peoples lives from these diseases.
>
> > >Diabetes.....
> >
> > Most of the deaths from diabetes are not from diabetes
> > directly, but from heart disease, stroke, and kidney failure.
> >
> > Thiazides and other diuretics, ACE inhibitors, the newer
> > ARB inhibitors, all greatly reduce the development of
> > these complications. Calcium channel blockers control
> > hypertension for many, and these act to reduce the progress
> > of those conditions. Metformin has helped to control blood
> > sugar, and the newer glitazones, which work for some, can
> > even essentially reverse insulin resistance if they work.
> > I have not exhausted the list. That Type 2 diabetes was
> > not the same disease as Type 1, allowing the attempts at
> > chemical treatment other than insulin, was only found out
> > 35 years ago. We still do not know how insulin resistance
> > gets going, and not much about how it works.
> >
>
> The fact is that treating the symptoms does not cure anything

Controlling insulin levels is not a symptomatic treatment. One might
suggest that the effectiveness of this control is not yet perfect, but
through the use of monitoring techniques, insulin pumps, ilet cell
transplant, pharmaceuticals, and involvement by the patient, the
downstream effects of diabetes are avoidable.

> and most
> certainly does not save lives.

The survival of a Type I diabetic before insulin was markedly less
than today. Want to guess how much less?

> How about researching the cause of
> diabetes

The pathophysiology of diabetes is fairly well documented. The
overwhelming majority of Type IIs are overweight or obese.

> and not just try to find drugs that could possibly be seen as
> helping minimize symptoms? But where is the money in that?

Controlling symptoms is a good thing. But you have a choice.

> > >Heart Disease.....
> >
> > Many of the above drugs also work to reduce the risk of
> > heart disease. For those with too much of the wrong
> > type of cholesterol, statins are effective. I have only
> > criticized going overboard on them. There are improved
> > drugs to help non-invasive diagnosis.
> >
>
> Bull***. They deal with the side show not the main event. They give
> the appearance of doing something while allowing the disease to
> progress.

Hypertension is a condition defined by blood pressure in excess of
140/90. Medication, usede correctly, can (does) reduce this to the
normal 120/80 range in many patients. Is this a cure?

> How can you even bring up the subject of statins. They are
> the worse of the bunch with the exception possibly of SSRI's. They do
> nothing except treat symptoms and completely ignore the underlying
> causes. Are you that stupid to actually believe what you are writing?

Herman and I don't agree on Bayes, but in this case, Herman is right.

> > >Alzheimers......
> >
> > Nobody has found any yet. We do not know how it gets going.
> >
>
> Of course you don't. Big surprise there.

amyloid plaques seem to be part of the physiology - and that's been in
the literature for quite some time. The problem is trying to keep
those plaques from forming. Their formation is thought to have a
genetic association.
 
> > >AIDS......
> >
> > The current treatments of AIDS have enabled those with
> > the disease to live many years longer than they would
> > have otherwise, and to be productive. Some of the drugs
> > have greatly increased the probability that a woman with
> > AIDS will not pass it on to a child.
> >
>
> Bull***. AZT causes the same kind of physical deteriration as the
> disease itself. I kills people.

You do?

Tell you what - when you get sick, don't use medication.

>
> > We know how AIDS is caused, and we can attack the advance
> > of the virus. We have made more progress in chemical
> > attack on the AIDS virus than any other; possibly on
> > all others.
> >
>
> You think you know. Show me the proof that HIV was isolated and that
> it has met Koch's postulates. No progress has been done since it was
> declared that we know the cause and that we will have a vaccine in 18
> months. What year was that... 1979 wasn't it?

If one can hold the viral load down the progression of HIV is slowed.
I'd say that this is sufficient evidence that keeping viral load down
is rational therapy. Care to argue differently?

 
> > >Some of these diseases have had war declared on them, some for
> > >numerous decades now, where are the lifesaving drugs? A lot of promise
> > >but not much follow through. The promise of new life saving drugs is
> > >just another marketing mantra, and nothing more.
> >
> > My father died from a stroke plus diabetes; my sister died
> > from kidney failure after years of dialysis, also caused
> > by diabetes. The newer drugs would have had a fair chance
> > to have at least greatly delayed those. I have diabetes,
> > some hypertension, and a heart condition; partial blockage
> > of a coronary artery is quite common.
>
> My dad died of diabetes, gangrene, leg amputation, stroke and finally
> heart disease. Those drugs would have done squat except put us in the
> poor house and give us false hope. Those drugs would have just made
> the pharmaceutical execs richer and us poorer.

Then don't take medication - simple as that.
 
> TC

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