Re: "Statins caused my kidney failure"

From: Bill (xxx_at_yy.zz)
Date: 07/21/04

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    Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:05:02 GMT

    "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
    news:fKkLc.132401$JR4.83874@attbi_s54...
    >
    > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
    > news:DYpKc.2084$r05.1952@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
    > >
    > > "Owen Lowe" <noemails@please.com> wrote in message
    > > news:noemails-4FD736.23393317072004@corp.supernews.com...
    > > > In article <qzkKc.2168$4L7.1160@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
    > > > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > > > You are deliberately misreading what the words say. It means out
    > of a
    > > > > > > population of 1000 people 18 lives will be saved by those taking
    > Zocor
    > > > > over
    > > > > > > the 5 year period. Do you agree or disagree with this?
    > > >
    > > > <SNIPing is GOOD>
    > > >
    > > > > Again, does or does not the sentence below mean that in tested
    > population
    > > had
    > > > > a reduced risk of death over the 5 year period while taking Zocor? If
    > not,
    > > > > what does it mean to you.
    > > > >
    > > > > "Results showed that the participants who took Zocor decreased their
    > odds
    > > > > of overall mortality by 1.8% in the next five years, compared to
    > those
    > > who
    > > > > were untreated (placebo group)"
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I think it's a convoluted sentence... It's not directly saying that it
    > > > reduced deaths of the group by 1.8%, it's saying it reduced the odds of
    > > > dying by 1.8%. Then you need to look at... What were the participants'
    > > > odds of dying within 5 years without the Zocor treatment? If it was high
    > > > risk, say 20% (just picking a number out of thin air), then after the 5
    > > > years of Zocor was the risk then 19.64%? Or does it mean it was down to
    > > > 18.2%?
    > > >
    > > > Working through the numbers: If you have your group of 1000, all at the
    > > > same 20% high risk, by the odds, untreated, 200 would likely die within
    > > > 5 years. According to the statement, after the Zocor treatment the
    > > > overall risk is lowered by 1.8% to either 19.64% or 18.2%. Therefore
    > > > you'd expect either 196 or 182 to die during the 5 years. Of your
    > > > original 1000, either 4 or 18 would not die who had been expected to --
    > > > by appearances the med "saved" either .4% or 1.8% of all participants.
    > > > (This still means that182 or 196 taking Zocor died regardless of the
    > > > treatment.)
    > > >
    > > > The question then to ask is whether it's cost effective, not only
    > > > financially but side-effect-wise to medicate 1000 to save 18 - or less,
    > > > 4. It would appear to me, given the percentage of patients who
    > > > experience negative side-effects (roughly 5% according to some reports
    > > > and Dr. Chung) that 3 times, or more, the number of patients are
    > > > detrimentally affected than are helped.
    > > >
    > > > (I attempted to find where the statement entered into the thread to read
    > > > the original context but wasn't successful.)
    > >
    > > Yes I agree we don't know the precise numbers because we do not have the
    > > original article, but it does clearly say that less people in the Zocor
    > group
    > > died than in the placebo group - which is the only point I am trying to
    > make.
    > > <snip>
    >
    > Careful. You have not addressed the "unrelated" category of deaths.
    >

    For about the 10th time the quote said:

    "Results showed that the participants who took Zocor decreased their odds
    of overall mortality by 1.8% in the next five years, compared to those
     who were untreated (placebo group)"

    And I think "overall mortality" kinda means "overall mortality".

    Bill

    > In several studies there were deaths among the participants that were
    > designated as "unrelated" but were due to causes, such as hemorrhagic
    > stroke - yet no notation was added to point out that early statin trials
    > showed that as a known side-effect. Dogs, in particular, had to be
    > eliminated from drug company statin trials because they were regularly
    > developing cognitive disorientation and hemorrhagic stroke. Yet these
    > deaths in human trials were put down in the "unrelated" category.
    >
    > That is just one example. Further, there is evidence that memory loss -
    > which is known to occur in statin users (and sometimes resolve itself upon
    > discontinuation of the drug, only to reoccur upon rechallenge with the drug)
    > is also related to a higher accidental death rate (e.g., forgetting to turn
    > off the stove and letting something burn). Amnesia, which is listed on the
    > Lipitor PI, can also be associated with a higher death rate (e.g., panic
    > causing the victim to run into harm's way, or retrograding to a pre-driving
    > age while operating a motor vehicle or jet plane).
    >
    > The margin of "benefit" is so slim in so many public trials as to be
    > potentially negated if some of these "unrelated" deaths were examined and
    > found to be caused or exacerbated by adverse-effects.
    >
    >

  • Next message: Gregory Poon: "Re: Canadians and others who think the US is evil"

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