Re: "Statins caused my kidney failure"

From: Sharon Hope (shope_at_anet.net)
Date: 07/22/04 

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:55:15 GMT

"Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
news:x3lLc.2616$4L7.2330@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Sharon Hope" <shope@anet.net> wrote in message
> news:fKkLc.132401$JR4.83874@attbi_s54...
> >
> > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote in message
> > news:DYpKc.2084$r05.1952@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > >
> > > "Owen Lowe" <noemails@please.com> wrote in message
> > > news:noemails-4FD736.23393317072004@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > In article <qzkKc.2168$4L7.1160@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>,
> > > > "Bill" <xxx@yy.zz> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > > You are deliberately misreading what the words say. It means
out
> > of a
> > > > > > > population of 1000 people 18 lives will be saved by those
taking
> > Zocor
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > the 5 year period. Do you agree or disagree with this?
> > > >
> > > > <SNIPing is GOOD>
> > > >
> > > > > Again, does or does not the sentence below mean that in tested
> > population
> > > had
> > > > > a reduced risk of death over the 5 year period while taking Zocor?
If
> > not,
> > > > > what does it mean to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Results showed that the participants who took Zocor decreased
their
> > odds
> > > > > of overall mortality by 1.8% in the next five years, compared to
> > those
> > > who
> > > > > were untreated (placebo group)"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think it's a convoluted sentence... It's not directly saying that
it
> > > > reduced deaths of the group by 1.8%, it's saying it reduced the odds
of
> > > > dying by 1.8%. Then you need to look at... What were the
participants'
> > > > odds of dying within 5 years without the Zocor treatment? If it was
high
> > > > risk, say 20% (just picking a number out of thin air), then after
the 5
> > > > years of Zocor was the risk then 19.64%? Or does it mean it was down
to
> > > > 18.2%?
> > > >
> > > > Working through the numbers: If you have your group of 1000, all at
the
> > > > same 20% high risk, by the odds, untreated, 200 would likely die
within
> > > > 5 years. According to the statement, after the Zocor treatment the
> > > > overall risk is lowered by 1.8% to either 19.64% or 18.2%. Therefore
> > > > you'd expect either 196 or 182 to die during the 5 years. Of your
> > > > original 1000, either 4 or 18 would not die who had been expected
to --
> > > > by appearances the med "saved" either .4% or 1.8% of all
participants.
> > > > (This still means that182 or 196 taking Zocor died regardless of the
> > > > treatment.)
> > > >
> > > > The question then to ask is whether it's cost effective, not only
> > > > financially but side-effect-wise to medicate 1000 to save 18 - or
less,
> > > > 4. It would appear to me, given the percentage of patients who
> > > > experience negative side-effects (roughly 5% according to some
reports
> > > > and Dr. Chung) that 3 times, or more, the number of patients are
> > > > detrimentally affected than are helped.
> > > >
> > > > (I attempted to find where the statement entered into the thread to
read
> > > > the original context but wasn't successful.)
> > >
> > > Yes I agree we don't know the precise numbers because we do not have
the
> > > original article, but it does clearly say that less people in the
Zocor
> > group
> > > died than in the placebo group - which is the only point I am trying
to
> > make.
> > > <snip>
> >
> > Careful. You have not addressed the "unrelated" category of deaths.
> >
>
> For about the 10th time the quote said:
>
> "Results showed that the participants who took Zocor decreased their odds
> of overall mortality by 1.8% in the next five years, compared to those
> who were untreated (placebo group)"
>
>
> And I think "overall mortality" kinda means "overall mortality".
>
> Bill

I think you kinda want it to mean that.

Are you saying that if a person drops out of the study due to being hit by
lightning and killed instantly, that would help the statistics of the group,
placebo or statin, from which he came? That would further weaken the 1.8%
odds (as described so excellently in the post we are following).

You need to check the full story to see if the authors kinda meant that or
if you are kinda jumping to conclusions.

>
> > In several studies there were deaths among the participants that were
> > designated as "unrelated" but were due to causes, such as hemorrhagic
> > stroke - yet no notation was added to point out that early statin trials
> > showed that as a known side-effect. Dogs, in particular, had to be
> > eliminated from drug company statin trials because they were regularly
> > developing cognitive disorientation and hemorrhagic stroke. Yet these
> > deaths in human trials were put down in the "unrelated" category.
> >
> > That is just one example. Further, there is evidence that memory loss -
> > which is known to occur in statin users (and sometimes resolve itself
upon
> > discontinuation of the drug, only to reoccur upon rechallenge with the
drug)
> > is also related to a higher accidental death rate (e.g., forgetting to
turn
> > off the stove and letting something burn). Amnesia, which is listed on
the
> > Lipitor PI, can also be associated with a higher death rate (e.g., panic
> > causing the victim to run into harm's way, or retrograding to a
pre-driving
> > age while operating a motor vehicle or jet plane).
> >
> > The margin of "benefit" is so slim in so many public trials as to be
> > potentially negated if some of these "unrelated" deaths were examined
and
> > found to be caused or exacerbated by adverse-effects.
> >
> >
>
>

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