Re: Statin-associated Muscle Problems


"Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:VtydnTvviv_3cCPfRVn-qg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> <Hawki63@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:Xjkve.4026$Bx6.2643@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> "Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:sd6dnU5kysuoSiHfRVn-oQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Yes, but did you have a muscle biopsy showing ragged red fibers? That,
>>> due to a placebo effect, would be an apples to apples comparison for
>>> those who have had such diagnosis of their statin myopathy.
>>
>>
>> that makes no sense...even if I did have a muscle biopsy showing ragged
>> red fibers,,,it could not be placebo effect..
>>
>> if never on a statin...such a biopsy could not be blamed on a statin
>>
>> or am I missing your drift??
>
> Actually you made my point.
>
> Yes, muscle pain is often just muscle pain.
>
> However, your muscle pain on placeboe would/did not bear up under
> diagnosis.
>
> It is difficult (even with the pain scale) to compare pain among patients.
> Some patients actually commit suicide due to chronic pain (a friend of a
> friend IME). Others withstand incredible pain.
>
> Your anecdote about the pain was interesting, and a remider of the placebo
> effect (and its inverse).
>
> However, I was trying to remind you that what you considered pain may or
> may not compare to other statin patient's muscle pain.
>
> I've told it before, but my husband's explanation of his statin pain came
> up in the course of bumping his finger. He had that morning reached to
> pick up a fallen palm frond and accidentally jammed a splinter from the
> stalk end (about the width & thickness of the wide end of a flat
> toothpick) up under his fingernail and all the way through longitudinally
> to the quick, erupting through the skin at that end of the nail. Palm
> fronds are fibrous and expand with moisture, so the splinter swelled,
> adding pressure under the nail, and attempts to remove it left some pieces
> under the nail.
>
> Later in the day, as he reached for something and bumped the finger he
> expressed pain, then turned to me to explain. You know, he said, this
> finger really hurts, but the level of constant pain I am in from the
> Lipitor is so high that, except for the moment when I got the splinter,
> and times like this when I actually bump it, the pain from this splinter
> is low enough by comparison that it is overcome by the chronic pain I feel
> every hour, day and night, from the statin.
>
> Maybe your placebo pain was that strong, but I doubt it. Maybe your
> placebo pain went on for over 7 1/2 years, as my husband's Lipitor pain
> has - every minute of every day, 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, 366
> on leap years - but I doubt it.
>
> And, certainly as you have confirmed, your placebo pain was not confirmed
> by muscle biopsy to be structurally demonstrable, as is the muscle pain of
> countless statin myopathy and myositis sufferers.
>
> Nor, although you do not say so, was your muscle pain confirmed to be
> myopathy due to statin-induced mitochondrial dysfunction as confirmed by
> chromatographic evaluation of exhalation gasses on a treadmill, as was my
> husband's Lipitor-induced myopathy, myositis, and mitochondrial damage.
>
> Therefore, although you point is a good reminder that sometimes we can
> talk ourselves into a cause for muscle pain that may just have been the
> result of normal daily life, it is very wrong of you to imply to a person
> who is taking statins and publicly complaining of muscle pain that they,
> like you, may just be imagining the cause to be statin adverse effects.
>
> 1) The degree of pain is not comparable
> 2) There is the option of muscle biopsy to show statin muscular and
> mitochondrial damage
> 3) There are metabolic tests to show statin mitochondrial damage
> 4) There are the published statistics that show (most recently published
> by paper presentation at the International CoQ10 Society conference, the
> Canadian radio broadcast on statins, and Dr. Cohen's book) that muscle
> pain and muscle damage is the #1 adverse effect of statins and of the 3
> most common adverse effects of statins - muscle, cognitive, and
> neurological damage - patients are experiencing at least one of the three
> at a rate of between 15% to 30%.
>
> Thus, even though you had some muscle pain and were not on a statin, that
> fact does nothing to discredit the pain felt by those on statins.
> Further, it is ABSOLUTELY NOT proof that their pain is unrelated to the
> statin.
>
> As a nurse you are certainly a humanitarian, and I know you did not mean
> to imply you were disputing the person with muscle pain statin adverse
> effects. I just wanted to help you make that fact clear.
>

thanks for that Sharon...you said it more clearly than I

the past few days have given me a new understanding of pain...I broke a bone
in my foot...on a scale of 1-10..the pain was at least a 15!!

luckily it is beginning to diminish..I now can hobble around with the
cast...the Percocet was actually making the situation worse..as it made my
chronic headaches much worse and I was sooooo nauseated!!

who woulda thunk a small foot bone fracture could hurt like that??? it
did..


> Muscle pain and statin muscle pain are both very real. The causes of one
> has nothing to do with the other. The verification of one has nothing to
> do with the verification of the other.
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>> <Hawki63@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:p70ue.2346$Bx6.1459@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> "Rita" <nitany_98@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>> news:cc1hb1hpncod4lkfsc7nkdml56j3g49bjt@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:10:21 GMT, <Hawki63@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>remember...I got the same muscle aches you did...on placebo!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>> You did? Had your read about this possible side effect?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Rita...
>>>>
>>>> ever hear that nurses and doctors make the worst patients??
>>>>
>>>> tis true...
>>>>
>>>> actually had also watched hubby go thru bad aches and pains with
>>>> Lipitor.....now has none with Pravachol
>>>>
>>>> also btw..once I went on REAL Lipitor...never an ache...amazing what
>>>> the mind can do
>>>>
>>>> I personally...my h.o. only...don't think the statin route has enough
>>>> to offer you...me either maybe..it made me crazy to know my 93 year old
>>>> MIL was on Lipitor!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'll admit when I began experiencing muscle aches and pains from
>>>>> Zocur I conjured up every possible alternatve explanation I could
>>>>> think of. The first time it happened I was feeling relatively
>>>>> poorly because of an onset of an allergy complex that made me
>>>>> feel overall rotten and my appetite for food was greatly
>>>>> diminished.
>>>>>
>>>>> I quit Zocor after 3 months on it, and gradually began to feel
>>>>> better. Got the allergy thing under control, began gaining back
>>>>> weight and had no muscle aches or pains after 2 months off the
>>>>> statin.
>>>>>
>>>>> Resumed the statin and within two weeks muscle pains and weakness
>>>>> came back full force.
>>>>>
>>>>> Quit it again after an other 2 weeks, and now am beginning to feel
>>>>> much better -- able to walk several blocks without pain, nightly
>>>>> excrutiating leg and foot cramps have stopped entirely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Twice burned and I'm off them for good. A gamble, perhaps, but
>>>>> one I'm willing to take, given the conflicting data about the
>>>>> wisdom of people aged 75, and especially women, taking statins
>>>>> in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.

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