Re: CK blood test

Name calling seems to be theraputic for you.

Readers can consider the facts, then consider the source.

"Bill" <xxx@xxxxx> wrote in message
news:nQlye.496$Xp6.220@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:E-qdndrOf9UTfVTfRVn-gg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Bill,
>>
>> Note that each entry is supplied with a link.
>> Your interpretation may differ. You are entitled to your interpretation.
>>
>
> It is not a matter of interpretation it is a matter that you have outright
> lied in what you have said.
>
>
> The typical reader is not going follow each link to check if you are
> telling the truth. Further, that he has the ability to do so in no way
> justifies your lies. And in the case of the Muldoon paper the reader would
> have no way to check without actually writing away for the paper.
>
>
>> You have the link to follow, which I supplied to help you find the
>> information quickly, and make that determination for yourself. Each
>> reader has that benefit.
>>
>> If I included every word in every article, the FAQ of 80+ pages would
>> explode nearly tenfold.
>>
>> You are welcome to spend 3 1/2 years researching an average 4 hours per
>> day in hopes of finding something that will help my husband recover more
>> quickly from statin adverse effects.
>>
>> You are welcome to spend days to put together and maintain a statin
>> adverse effects FAQ in your own way, and select what to include and what
>> to emphasize.
>>
>> Go for it!
>>
>
> What the fact that you spent a long time creating a lot of lies have to do
> with anything. Even if you spent a little time they would still be lies.
>
> Bill
>
>>
>> "Bill" <xxx@xxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:ALkye.474$Xp6.21@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> "Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:Kb2dnYRibeBG6VTfRVn-pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>I have never seen you post anything approaching 80+ pages of published
>>>>journal articles backing your opinions.
>>>>
>>>> For backup to mine see:
>>>> http://www.freewebs.com/stopped_our_statins/StatinFAQ_031305wTOCv4.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's filled with lies. For example, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Muldoon MF, Barger SD, Ryan CM, Flory JD, Lehoczky JP, Matthews KA,
>>> Manuck SB.
>>>
>>> Effects of lovastatin on cognitive function and psychological
>>> well-being.
>>>
>>> After 6 months, 100% of the patients on placeboes showed a measurable
>>> increase in
>>>
>>> cognitive function, and 100% of the statin patients showed a measurable
>>> decrease in
>>>
>>> cognitive function."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is simply 100% false. It is not in the paper.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You write:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "What are the Lipitor Averse Events reported in patients treated with
>>>
>>> Lipitor in clinical trials listed by Pfizer in the Physician's
>>> information?
>>>
>>> For a full introduction to the list, view
>>> http://www.lipitor.com/pi/default.asp, the
>>>
>>> information below is from the version updated as of April 2002:
>>>
>>> Body as a Whole: Chest pain, face edema, fever, neck rigidity, malaise,
>>> photosensitivity
>>>
>>> reaction, generalized edema.
>>>
>>> Digestive System: Nausea, gastroenteritis, liver function tests
>>> abnormal, colitis, vomiting,
>>>
>>> gastritis, dry mouth, rectal hemorrhage, esophagitis, eructation,
>>> glossitis, mouth
>>>
>>> ulceration, anorexia, increased appetite, stomatitis, biliary pain,
>>> cheilitis, duodenal ulcer,
>>>
>>> dysphagia, enteritis, melena, gum hemorrhage, stomach ulcer, tenesmus,
>>> ulcerative
>>>
>>> stomatitis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, cholestatic jaundice.
>>>
>>> Respiratory System: Bronchitis, rhinitis, pneumonia, dyspnea, asthma,
>>> epistaxis.
>>>
>>> Nervous System: Insomnia, dizziness, paresthesia, somnolence, amnesia,
>>> abnormal
>>>
>>> dreams, libido decreased, emotional lability, incoordination, peripheral
>>> neuropathy,
>>>
>>> torticollis, facial paralysis, hyperkinesia, depression, hypesthesia,
>>> hypertonia.
>>>
>>> Musculoskeletal System: Arthritis, leg cramps, bursitis, tenosynovitis,
>>> myasthenia,
>>>
>>> tendinous contracture, myositis.
>>>
>>> Skin and Appendages: Pruritus, contact dermatitis, alopecia, dry skin,
>>> sweating, acne,
>>>
>>> urticaria, eczema, seborrhea, skin ulcer.
>>>
>>> Urogenital System: Urinary tract infection, urinary frequency, cystitis,
>>> hematuria,
>>>
>>> impotence, dysuria, kidney calculus, nocturia, epididymitis, fibrocystic
>>> breast, vaginal
>>>
>>> hemorrhage, albuminuria, breast enlargement, metrorrhagia, nephritis,
>>> urinary
>>>
>>> incontinence, urinary retention, urinary urgency, abnormal ejaculation,
>>> uterine
>>>
>>> hemorrhage.
>>>
>>> Special Senses: Amblyopia, tinnitus, dry eyes, refraction disorder, eye
>>> hemorrhage,
>>>
>>> deafness, glaucoma, parosmia, taste loss, taste perversion.
>>>
>>> Cardiovascular System: Palpitation, vasodilatation, syncope, migraine,
>>> postural
>>>
>>> hypotension, phlebitis, arrhythmia, angina pectoris, hypertension.
>>>
>>> Metabolic and Nutritional Disorders: Peripheral edema, hyperglycemia,
>>> creatine
>>>
>>> phosphokinase increased, gout, weight gain, hypoglycemia.
>>>
>>> Hemic and Lymphatic System: Ecchymosis, anemia, lymphadenopathy,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What you leave out is that Pfizer says these are what happened to people
>>> during the test and one should not attribute causality. Why did you
>>> leave out that important part? If you have 2000 people drink water for 6
>>> months they will report various ailments. It does not mean the water
>>> caused them. Pfizer made that clear- you claim these are "Lipitor
>>> Adverse Events" giving a complete distortion of the picture and this was
>>> deliberate.
>>>
>>> So, yes, this is a good example of your credentials.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>> "listener" <listener@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns96896CB7A6125some1outthere@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> "Bill" <xxx@xxxxx> wrote in
>>>>> news:MZ7ye.153$LK5.85@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uuudndUjpebdUFXfRVn-2g@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bill" <xxx@xxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:3N2ye.194$Xp6.75@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:xJWdnd-d1M3hNFXfRVn-2g@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Bill" <xxx@xxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:EN%xe.152$Xp6.1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Sharon Hope" <shope@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:W9idnfLmY7EBHlXfRVn-pg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Robert" <Robertitsme@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:FOednZk6qqRJz1XfRVn-qQ@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://jnnp.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/68/6/750
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/-415956920.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Being a doctor is hard and not as straight forward as some
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> have you
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Statins are contra indicated in hypothyroidism which is what I
>>>>>>>>>>>> presume you
>>>>>>>>>>>> have based on your Super sensitive TSH which is low. Thyroid
>>>>>>>>>>>> meds are based
>>>>>>>>>>>> on TSH levels. Too low then meds are cut back and too high then
>>>>>>>>>>>> meds are
>>>>>>>>>>>> increased.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thyroid impacts metabolism. You know how people go on diets and
>>>>>>>>>>>> they say to
>>>>>>>>>>>> lose fat and not muscle? Muscle metabolism is involved in
>>>>>>>>>>>> thyroid disorders
>>>>>>>>>>>> as reflected by the CK or CPK which stands for creatine
>>>>>>>>>>>> phosphokinase. It is
>>>>>>>>>>>> an enzyme that is involved with high energy phosphorulation
>>>>>>>>>>>> coupling reactions. ATP is the energy source of preference for
>>>>>>>>>>>> aerobic use while creatine phosphate is the preferred source
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> anaerobic function.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are three different enzymes that we can test for. The one
>>>>>>>>>>>> of use clinically is the CKMB fraction that is derived from
>>>>>>>>>>>> heart generally and is
>>>>>>>>>>>> used to check for heart attacks. The CKMM fraction is from
>>>>>>>>>>>> conventional muscle and the CKBB fraction from brain.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are many, many reasons for CK elevations, from regular
>>>>>>>>>>>> exercise to
>>>>>>>>>>>> more severe disease.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To blame everything on statins is just as dangerous and not
>>>>>>>>>>>> blaming anything
>>>>>>>>>>>> on statins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, the doctors are supposed to look for "horses, not zebras"
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> identifying the cause of a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In this case, the doctor should first ask, did you participate
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> an ultra-marathon race immediately before the blood test?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If not, the "horse" approach would be to ask:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is this patient taking a drug that has a known adverse effect of
>>>>>>>>>>> muscle damage as identified by elevated CK? Yes? A statin?
>>>>>>>>>>> Then the most likely cause is the statin.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if that is true or not true. What do you base that
>>>>>>>>>> on? Do you know what % of people who are not on statins normally
>>>>>>>>>> have high CK levels? Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We know the "norms" from the CK Lab report.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's not the point or addressing the question I asked. The
>>>>>>>> question I'm trying to get an answer to is: If you took a random
>>>>>>>> cross section of the population of non statin takers what is the
>>>>>>>> liklihood that a person would show a high level of CK on this test.
>>>>>>>> Or, to put it another way, what is the probability of a false
>>>>>>>> positive on this test? Your claim that the most likely cause is a
>>>>>>>> statin requires the false positive rate to be low.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't take random cross sections of anything. I work full time
>>>>>>> plus to keep the family afloat, because one wage earner is now
>>>>>>> disabled from statin adverse effects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which has no relevance to anything being discussed here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The most logical place to look for a sudden symptom that corresponds
>>>>>>> to the most common known adverse effects of the drug the patient is
>>>>>>> taking is that drug. This is not surprising.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No rates of false positives are required at all. Once one cause is
>>>>>>> eliminated, others are visited. Are you asking if a CK reading
>>>>>>> itself is likely to be a false positive? If that were common, I
>>>>>>> would expect that there would be a series of measurements made, or
>>>>>>> the measurement would not be considered useful at all. Apparently
>>>>>>> doctors are encouraged to use it with statin patients and with
>>>>>>> myopathy, so draw your own conclusions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am no an expert on anything medical, and would expect you to ask
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> expert your question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You claimed:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> " Is this patient taking a drug that has a known adverse effect of
>>>>>> muscle
>>>>>> damage as identified by elevated CK? Yes? A statin? Then the most
>>>>>> likely cause is the statin."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am asking you to support YOUR claim. Why could not the most likely
>>>>>> cause be a false positive due to something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My comments spring from the observation that, despite the fact that
>>>>>>> the most common adverse effects from statin drugs are well
>>>>>>> documented
>>>>>>> as muscle damage, cognitive damage and nerve damage, many doctors
>>>>>>> faced with that constellation of symptoms in a statin patient refuse
>>>>>>> to consider the drug while they chase other possible or imagined
>>>>>>> causes, while all the while the drug adverse effects are worsening
>>>>>>> and becoming more debilitating and disabling.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which has nothing to do with the question which is why could not the
>>>>>> most most likely source be a false positive due to something else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If a drug is prescribed that has the adverse effects the patient
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> presenting, regardless of the drug is a statin, that is the most
>>>>>>>>> likely cause to investigate first. This per a presentation on
>>>>>>>>> Medical Ethics at UCSD.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Diagnosis can be challenging when it is an obscure but documented
>>>>>>>>> adverse effect, and when it is an adverse effect of more than one
>>>>>>>>> drug the patient is taking.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the case of statins, muscle pain and muscle damage with and
>>>>>>>>> without elevated CK is the most common adverse effect. No mystery
>>>>>>>>> in muscle pain with elevated CK while on statins or after statins.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If no statin has been taken, and no other myotoxin, look for the
>>>>>>>>>>> next most likely cause of the elevated CK.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If, by the way, the statin was discontinued due to muscle pain,
>>>>>>>>>>> expect the muscle pain and damage to continue for months to
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>> before subsiding.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just the opposite is true. From
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://medicine.ucsd.edu/SES/adverse_effects.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Although symptoms usually resolve on stopping the drug, for a
>>>>>>>>>> proportion of those who have contacted us, muscle symptoms - pain
>>>>>>>>>> or weakness - or peripheral neuropathy may persist when the drugs
>>>>>>>>>> are discontinued."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is not binary, there is a range of recovery experiences.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I did not say it was. You claimed:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If, by the way, the statin was discontinued due to muscle pain,
>>>>>>>>>>> expect the muscle pain and damage to continue for months to
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>> before subsiding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to the what I cited. One should not "expect the muscle
>>>>>>>> pain and damage to continue for months to years before subsiding."
>>>>>>>> And there are many more references that say the muscle pains
>>>>>>>> typically resolve upon discontinuing the statins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Therefore you were absolutely wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not so. You cited a website by the same researcher I cited.
>>>>>>> Knowledge is gained over time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that I cited the same website was to show that even people
>>>>>> you trust disagree with with you. What does "Knowledge is gained over
>>>>>> time" have to do with anything. Again why should one
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "expect the muscle pain and damage to continue for months to years
>>>>>> before subsiding"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my husband's case, the CK continued to elevate, ramping up to
>>>>>>>>> the threshold of rhabdo, for 12 full months off the statin before
>>>>>>>>> leveling off and starting to subside.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I did not say it could not happen in an individual case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I say it did indeed happen in this individual's case. And, I have
>>>>>>> observed it myself, and I have the documented evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what? I agree with this. That fact that you have documented it has
>>>>>> no relevance to this discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dr. Golomb, whose website you cite, presented at the International
>>>>>>>>> Coenzyme Q10 Association conference this spring, and gave
>>>>>>>>> statistics on the ranges (in months) of time (with a plus-or-minus
>>>>>>>>> factor of additional montns) for two categories:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) Time to start of recovery
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) Time to recover in full (or to the degree of recovery possible)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> These tables included the three most common statin adverse
>>>>>>>>> effects:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a) Muscle Damage
>>>>>>>>> b) Cognitive Damage
>>>>>>>>> c) Nerve Damage
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In addition, she presented these numbers for the number of statin
>>>>>>>>> exposures. i,e,, if a patient suffered an adverse effect on one
>>>>>>>>> statin, halted the statin, recovered, then was started on a second
>>>>>>>>> statin. Also, the same for a halt, recovery, then prescription
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> a third statin.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Further, Dr. Golomb set the likelihood of experiencing the same
>>>>>>>>> adverse effect on the second statin, if the statin is at the same
>>>>>>>>> effective dosage in the 90-95% range.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> None of which is relevent to the question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously, if the time before there is any recovery at all from
>>>>>>> statin muscle damage is measured in MONTHS, that would be precisely
>>>>>>> relevant to the question of how long it typically takes for muscle
>>>>>>> pain begins to lessen. (that is after discontinuing the statin, of
>>>>>>> course)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will accept that if you present evidence of it - not your
>>>>>> recollection of it. It is not consitent with her website which says
>>>>>> that "symptoms usually resolve upon stopping the drug" This does not
>>>>>> imply to most people months or years. (Unless you mean 0 to 2 months
>>>>>> and 0 years) Otherwise please provide some evidence of your claim
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> I can see. What is a typical time for resolution of symptoms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oftentimes, not always, CK elevation correlates to muscle pain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This, again, is the START of recovery, there is another entire
>>>>>>> chart,
>>>>>>> also measured in MONTHS (plus-or-minus some number of MONTHS) before
>>>>>>> the muscle pain resolves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If that is not relevant to the question, you didn't ask clearly
>>>>>>> enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>CK elevation can continue to climb for a full year before
>>>>>>>>>>>leveling
>>>>>>>>>>>off and then subsiding.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In some cases, the statin muscle damage exists without the
>>>>>>>>>>> elevated CK.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In many cases, some level of statin-induced muscle dysfunction
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> permanent.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think there has been any documented case of permanent
>>>>>>>>>> muscle damage without elevated CK levels. Do you have any
>>>>>>>>>> evidence
>>>>>>>>>> that such cases exist?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was the previous paragraph, the statement "In many cases,
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> level of statin-induced muscle dysfunction is permanent" was
>>>>>>>>> independent. No, I have not seen the breakdown of the cases of
>>>>>>>>> permanent muscle damage with vs without elevated CK. The answer
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> this would be in one of the many statin adverse effects studies
>>>>>>>>> awaiting publication.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Such a case may or may not exist in studies awaiting publication.
>>>>>>>> But I have been though some of the previous studies and have not
>>>>>>>> found one. I don't think you can cite one either.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you know about when the adverse effects studies will be
>>>>>>>> published?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the journal editorial board is ready to publish a study that
>>>>>>> might not please their statin pharmco advertizers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you mean by that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Ben" <organ@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:da9db30o1c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I had full blood work done a few weeks ago and most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> result was very
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good. Especially the cholesterol. but two readings were out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the normal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> limits. And that is STSH 0.08, that is for the thyroid. which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not
>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well due that I am on Amiodarone and also the CK 390. Now the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cardiologist
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reduce my thyroid medication, but said nothing about the CK.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My question is, are the two related, what is CK reading
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your input would be appreciated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill,
>>>>>
>>>>> Here again, we enter the sci.med.cardiology Twilight Zone. The
>>>>> dialogue
>>>>> above has taken place so many times. Sharon makes a claim, someone
>>>>> questions it, she's offended that someone had the balls to question it
>>>>> ("I don't take random cross sections of anything. I work full time
>>>>> plus
>>>>> to keep the family afloat, because one wage earner is now disabled
>>>>> from
>>>>> statin adverse effects"), she makes an attempt to defend her
>>>>> statements,
>>>>> someone questions her attempts, she feigns ingorance ("I am no an
>>>>> expert
>>>>> on anything medical"), she changes the subject, she blames doctors,
>>>>> she
>>>>> blames pharma, (now she blames Journals!) she blames us for being
>>>>> insensitive and eventually you'll be dismissed with an online
>>>>> diagnosis
>>>>> of statin-induced aggression and the thread will end!
>>>>>
>>>>> All because you've politely asked her to back up some of her claims.
>>>>> There's simply no reasoning with her and the others. This Chung-like
>>>>> behavoir is more in need of a psychologist than a gp.
>>>>>
>>>>> L.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.

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