Re: How America Massacred Many Innocent Civilians At Fallujah

From: A_Weisman (a_weisman_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 06/12/04 

Date: 12 Jun 2004 16:37:09 -0700

sinaj101@aol.comnospam (Sinaj101) wrote in message news:<20040612091017.04685.00000583@mb-m25.aol.com>...
> ARAB OUTRAGE?
>
> I will be the first to admit what the MP's in the prison did is not in
> accordance with the Geneva Convention however, when was the last time
> that we fought a war with an enemy that did observe the rules of war.

Janis with due respect (if any is due) I seriously doubt that you have
ever read the geneva convention of have any basis to say what is or is
not a violation thereof.

As to your knowledge of history and what "enemies" we have fought with
who do or don't follow the "rules of war" I seriously doubt that you
have any idea what you're talking about or the subtleties and nuances
of the questions you are posing or statements you are making.

With due respect.

> Remember the Baatan Death March, remember the ovens in Poland, Austria and
> Hungry?

And your point is what exactly?

> Remember the beating our prisoners endured at the hands of the Viet Cong???

Ever hear of Mi Lai? Or atrocities committed by US soldiers on the
people of View Nam? Or by our "allies" aka puppets the ARVN? (army of
the republic of viet nam--the regular army of south viet nam FYI).

> To hell with Arab outrage!!!

Do you know why "they" hate us, a question (ignorant) americans
constantly ask?

The first reason (and there are many) is that we don't have the first
clue why they hate us. Because we don't have any understanding of
their culture or perspective or respect for them.

A good patriotic american would condemn the outrages of our behavior
at abu ghareib and elsewhere rather than making lame arguments to try
to justify it.

Your argument amounts to what is good for the goose is good for the
gander. Your argument amounts to saying that we should sink to their
level.

But how then do we justify our efforts to "liberate" them and make
their country safe for freedom and democracy? How do we retain the
moral authority to "liberate" them from the abuses of Sadaam and his
Baathist party when we act like them, and YOU try to justify rather
than condemn it.

What makes us "better" than them if we agreed with your argument?

> Arabs are "outraged" over the humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of a
> few American servicemen.

Yes. So are most good americans. No one with a conscience can justify
what is being done in our names.

> Where were these "outraged" Arabs when necrophiliacs in Fallujah mutilated
> four American soldiers by stepping on their burnt skulls and hung their burnt
> bodies from a bridge?

In case you missed it those actions along with the beheading of Nick
Berg WERE condemned widely in the Arab world.

> Where were these "outraged" Arabs when "Palestinians" mutilated and dragged the
> bodies of two IDF soldiers in Ramallah?

Again many condemned these actions in the arab world.

And what is your point anyway? That if they do bad things, it is okay
for us to do bad things? What moral authority do we have then? What
makes us better than them?

I remember an episode of Miami Vice. Crockett and Tubbs are sitting in
a car at the end of an episode. Crockett (Don Johnson) says to Tubbs
"you know rico, we're better than them." This is after the inevitable
car chase and shoot out where most of the bad guys are killed. A few
explosions are thrown in too. Tubbs looks over at crockett and says
"we're better than them???" And Crockett looks back, smiles and says
"yeah. Better shots."

So is that what it comes down to? We're better shots? Better equipped?
Bigger bombs. That is the difference?

Face it. There's no WMDs. No bio or chem weapons. No mobile labs. No
nuclear weapons program. No yellowcake uranium. No links to Al Qaeda
(although there are plenty of em there now).

The only justification for our invasion (which has resulted in tens of
thousands of deaths and injuries and much destruction and disruption)
is that Sadaam was a bad guy and the iraqi people are better off
without him. This is really a disturbing ends justifies the means
argument. More disturbing is the fact that the end remains to be seen.
A disintegration of Iraq may result in destabilization of the entire
area, war between (our ally) Turkey and the kurds, and the possible
rise of a radical islamist majority and theocracy a la iran. Which in
many ways would be worse for us and our allies than Sadaam a tinpot
dictator who was really no threat to anyone. We've disrupted basic
services that sadaam did provide and what we leave behind may be
actually worse for iraq, the region and our allies.

And our actions are ratcheting up the HATRED for us all around the
world, including amongst our allies. It is threatening to destablize
the "moderate" regimes in the middle east and poison our ability to
even participate in a peace process between israel and the
palestinians. Our actions are probably the best recruiting tool that
Al Qaeda could ever ask for.

Leaders in countries like saudi arabia, pakistan, turkey, egypt and
jordan and others work hard to convince their peoples that their
moderate views towards the US are not a betrayal. Actions like these
and arguments like yours threaten the existence of those leaders, and
threaten revolution and true regional and worldwide JIHAD. That's the
last thing that is good for us or our allies.

What we're doing is making the world a more dangerous place NOT a
safer one.

And diverting attention and resources from the "war on terror" and
poisoning our relationships with other countries who we desperately
need to fight that battle effectively.

What we're doing now is something we will pay the price for in the
future for many generations to come as new Osamas emerge by the bushel
full.

Your appalling lack of insight into this is part of the problem not
part of the solution when it comes to the problem of terrorism.

Your attitude makes me ashamed.

> Where were these "outraged" Arabs when 19 Muslims blew up the World Trade
> Center and the Pentagon on 9/11/01?

Condemnations of the attack were received even from sadaam FYI and
widely throughout the arab world.

Support for the US was sincere from all over. Unfortunately bush
squandered those good feelings and offers of help and turned them into
hatred and division. Making the world more dangerous for us, NOT
safer.

Doesn't help that he kept saying he was leading a CRUSADE to rid the
world of evil and evil doers. Such phraseology (and the underlying
belief system) strikes fear into the hearts of even moderate muslims.
Remember the actual crusades? Christians vs muslims?

> Where were these "outraged" Arabs when Muslims continue to slaughter Sudanese
> Christians?

Again what is your point? THere was outrage. It is attitudes like
yours that make arabs hate us.

> Where were these "outraged" Arabs when Muslims blew up Pan Am Flight 103?

It was supposedly ghadafi. Not thought of as a great muslim leader.

> Where were these "outraged" Arabs when Muslims bombed the marine barracks in
> Lebanon killing 241 Americans in 1983?

Where's your outrage at the actions of the US that have injured and
killed millions throughout the world? Where's your list of US
atrocities?

I know that frank will come along and post a list. Example after
example. And the numbers are MUCH greater Janis.

By the way did you ever think that people KNEW your name was Janis and
never bothered to comment?

Or care?

Anyway blah blah blah to your list. Where did you get this right wing
screed? I know you didn't make it up yourself.

<snip more of the list of outrages>
 
> Where was their indignation, folks? You know where? NOWHERE.

Wrong. And this inflamatory bullshit rhetoric isn't helpful to anyone.

> It was nowhere because Arab outrage when someone non-Arab is a victim,
> does not exist, it does not rate. Why? Because the Arab culture knows
> nothing but how to be proud and arrogant. The culture is a cohesive political
> glob of people united simply by political identity and not at all by morality.

This is simply hate speech you're reposting janis.

Shame on you.

> It's time for the rest of us, who DO know the difference between right and
> wrong, to tell the world that these "outraged" idiots are too pathetic
> to warrant any sympathy from the rest of us. We're waiting for these
> "outraged" Arabs to get up the manhood to be disgusted BY THEIR OWN people
> for the disgusting crimes they have committed against others.
>
> Then we'll shed a tear!!

I'm shedding a tear for america when people think this way.

YOU make me ashamed to be an american.

This moral relativistic argument is appalling and disgusting and a big
part of the problem. Reason #1 for why they hate us is attitudes like
us and people like YOU.

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