Back to Bach...interesting discussion of fees..."Can you tell me why some doctors charge so much more than others that offer the same exact treatment?"

(Guess the LymeNUTs forgot to delete this exchange).

See the posts by Lymindunkirk and JWagner...interesting, if
impassioned reply...(I edited thread, deleting mostly congratulatory
smooches and group-hugs and generally sucking up).

Yeah, do the math...grossing over 8 million a year at those
figures...and yet...soliciting donations...from patients? While having
his lawyer "fire" ALS patients, according to some?

So you can help build HIS new research and treatment center?

The guy must be on skid row...only $8 mil? Poor thing...of course,
that's before expenses and taxes...

Sooooo...

Notice also that Bach's impassioned defender never addresses the
simple question of disproportionate fees that is at issue...but the
violins and full orchestra come out...playing the Battle Hymn of the
"LLMD"S...in a very emotional and, somewhat successful diversionary
tactic...I was barely able to remain composed and dry-eyed myself...

"Can you tell me why some doctors charge so much more than others that
offer the same exact treatment"?

Interesting question.

Probably deserves an answer.

But this is very simply put...an exercise in defending the fees,
perhaps... exorbitant fees, charged by an ILADS doctor.

People need to decide whether they are advocates for patients...or
physicians.

..

(See the entire thread at LymeNUT..."Good News...LLMDs new research
center is underway")



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Author Topic: Good news... LLMD's new research center is underway
Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 10 June, 2005 01:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Congratulations to Dr. Gregory Bach!
I just heard the new offices Dr. Bach and his family have been working
to get up and running are moving along... A new Research facility for
Lyme Disease!!!

From what I understand... They have bought the ground and will be
building in Hamburg, PA... which is on Rt 78 between Harrisburg and
Allentown.... I think about about 1 1/2 hours from Gettysburg.

Good news, good news!




------------------
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance...





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lymeindunkirk
Frequent Contributor
Member # 7118

posted 11 June, 2005 09:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heard Dr. B had purchased land previously for his research center and
then there was a problem with the land. Its good to hear he was able
to find a new piece of land.
With what Dr. Bach charges though he doesn't need any research money.
He certainly took enough of mine. About $9,000 in just three short
months!

He told me he has 1200 patients. A conservative bill would be $650.00
for one person. He insists each patient visit once a month. You do the
math. He is bringing in over 8 million a year more than likely.

Dr. Bach is knowledgeable but I think some lean towards the fame and
fortune side a bit too much. Not enough true caring about the
patient.

Not all of these doctors deserve to be given research money. Not the
ones that charge so much they have patienst filing for bankruptcy
because of the doctor fees or must go without heat for three months in
the winter because they can't afford to get it fixed (a family I know
with Lyme).

After three months of treatment I found another qualified doctor that
doesn't gauge me for fees and doesn't insist Igenex test me every two
weeks ($900). Dr. Bach didn't even ask if I could afford it. They just
do it without asking me and charge it to my credit card.

If you have money to spare or don't mind seriously going without go
see Dr. Bach otherwise I think you can use someone else.


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Posts: 363 | From: Dunkirk, MD 20754 | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP:
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I don't know Dr. B, but I can tell you that my doctor in NC charged my
insurance over $50,000 for my IV therapy. Now, I'm not complaining
because I was treated and he had an excellent staff. I do complain
however that now I am off the pic line, I am receiving 3rd rate
treatment - I'm not cured by any means. Can't get an appointment with
anyone! Also, he is selling a CD that he produced for HIV/AIDS with
fancy publicity/marketing, etc., and builidng a new building. No
wonder he has no time for patients. I have heard from other doctor's
that they think he is brilliant, however, has become more on the side
of being an entrepreneur. They are upset because they count on him to
be their Infectious Disease specialist. His success is going to his
head. However, that's his choice - and that's America. Unfortunatley
for us lymie's there isn't another doctor around the corner to help
us! That's my complaint about my Dr. here in NC!!
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Posts: 62 | From: Cornelius, NC | Registered: Dec 2004 | IP:
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Lymeindunkirk
Frequent Contributor
Member # 7118

posted 11 June, 2005 06:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alslyme, I knew that there would be someone who wanted to argue with
me on this subject so here goes.
I did choose to stop seeing Dr. B and did so after just three months.
It took me that long to find another qualified doctor. I'm not over
estimating his charges. I know this because I PAID THEM! Perhaps I
should post my bills for you to review. I have had no less than ten
emails from people agreeing with me on this issue. One even emailed to
tell me he is a "crook". Now I don't believe that but his charges are
high.

I feel he is very knowledgable but he seems to have developed an
arrogance that puts off many people. Maybe he just has too many
patients now and needs to train an additional doctor to work with him?
I don't know what it is but it bothered me enough to make me change
doctors. I have to worry about myself and my son not everyone else.

I see a lyme doctor now that is very caring and even called me on a
Sunday when I was feeling particular poor. I can't see Dr. B. doing
that. It took a phone call once a week for thirty days before I could
even get my medical records mailed to me and even now documentation is
missing that I had paid for.

It's sad that there are doctors out there that are taking advantage of
the fact that they have a corner on the market. Some people are lucky
and have insurance that covers some of the charges but almost no one's
insurance remiburses all when the costs are as high as some of these
doctors.

Can you tell me why some doctors charge so much more than others that
offer the same exact treatment?

Is Dr. B charging different people different charges? And why would he
do that?

Everytime I was in Dr. B's office people sat in his waiting room and
complained about how long they had to wait and how much he charged.
Some patients told me that they had gotten better and some said they
hadn't. Intially I kept an open mind and listened to everyone, people
who loved him and people who were angry. I wanted to form my own
opinion.

I myself began the search for a new doctor after just one month. I
truly liked Dr. Bach and it was clear that he has a passion about
finding a cure for Lyme, but I didn't see the same passion towards the
patient. It was an odd mixture that confused me. I wasn't sure if I
should trust my instincts and find a different doctor. I think he is
brilliant but it seemed to be his way or no way.

I did not care for the numerous test that were being done without my
being given a choice and then charged to me without a care in the
world as to whether I could afford it.

My present doctor lets me know what he would like to do and then tells
me how much it will cost before it is done. I am given a choice to say
yes or no.

Never once was I ever given a choice to not have a test done at Dr.
B's office. Igenex testing every two weeks is very expensive. Never
once was I asked if I wanted to purchase supplements. It was put on my
bill and handed to me. When your sick and don't have any where else to
go of course you have to pay it. My husband and others kept telling me
I was nuts by continuing to pay him.

Haven't you read posts from some of his expatients talking about how
they were refused treatment after missing one visit either for weather
or because they couldn't afford treatment? Now that seems unfair!

It also bothered me a great deal that any doctor would expect SICK
people including sleepy children, to wait, sitting in a chair, for
over three hours to see him for ten minutes and then get an unpleasant
shot at midnight. How arrogant.

I hope and pray Dr. B does very well with his research center and even
finds a cure. It will take many great people with a special dedication
to do this.

If I refer anyone to Dr. B, I explain that he is knowledgable and that
he is a great place to start. I also explain the costs they should
expect and the time involved. I try to remain fair.

I wonder however, has anyone ever seen Dr. B and been told they don't
have Lyme? If so, let me know because it would make me feel so much
better.

I'm sorry if you don't agree Alslyme. NO one is perfect and Dr. B
certainly isn't. He is brilliant but that doesn't mean anyone should
follow him blindly.


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Posts: 363 | From: Dunkirk, MD 20754 | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP:
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Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 02:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went to the car dealer and ordered a new Mercedes last year.
OH MY GOSH!

It cost me MUCH more money than I had in the bank! What were they
thinking when they charged so much for the car?

How DARE they do that!

They must think I am going to pay for that new dealership they are
opening over in the next county. My monthly payments are enough to
cover their fancy advertising too. They just want to be famous and
they don't care about the people who come there or the cars. I know
they don't. If they did, they would do things MY way and charge me
what I feel like paying.

I am sure their motives must be evil because I am so unhappy now. I am
sure they didn't intend to provide local residents a choice of having
a reliable vehicle available.

I will just have to try to discredit them as best I can now because
they don't deserve to be paid more than I have... especially when
other places charge less!

Someone told me.. after the fact.. if I would have done my homework in
advance.. I would have known I could have gone to the Toyota dealer
and bought a car for much less.

But I didn't want to travel all over the place to find a good car. I
wanted them to be at MY service and I want to pay what I want and NOT
more than I have.

I think the salesman I had was really stupid too because he insisted I
get the car serviced on THEIR schedule... just to keep the warrentee
in effect and so I would be safe while driving down the road. I think
I should be able to do any follow ups at MY leisure.. and NOT be made
to follow the rules from the auto manufacturers and state inspection
boards.

And.. as I see it.. I can't afford to service my car that much... and
pay that kind of money to do it!

To make matters worse....

When I called my insurance company to get insurance.. they charged me
5 times what I was paying for my old truck! Can you believe the NERVE
of that company? I think they should charge the same as I paid
before.. and if my car is hit by a driver in the parking lot... I
should of course get a new Mercedes door panel and NOT a cheaper door
panel just because I paid less than they needed.

And what a butthead the mechanic is. He used the most expensive oil
when he serviced my car and didn't tell me that is what he was going
to do. He just did it.

I told him afterwards I didn't think it was right.. but he said it was
the best kind to use to be sure the car would be taken care of the
best way possible.

Now... I will have to file for bankruptcy just to be able to drive
back and forth to the grocery store to buy the food I need to live on.
After all.. I HAVE to eat!



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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 05:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's about 5 AM now. I have spent the last three hours straight
working on another response to this post.
Needless to say I am NOT happy or I would have been in bed long ago.
What a total waste of my time and energy.. but things need to be set
straight... and people need to show some respect here for everyone
fighting this disease.

As I started to copy the words I have written .. I noticed the sun was
starting to come up. It has been a long while since I have seen that
happen.

Ya know... I am going to wait and see if my previous post makes any
sense... and see if I got through to anyone before I post the NINE
page reply I just finished.

The BEST news I could have when I come back would be to see this
entire post was edited and/or totally removed... and to have back the
three hours of sleep I have lost on this ugly stuff.

Good night- to those who can sleep.



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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

JRWagner
Frequent Contributor
Member # 3229

posted 13 June, 2005 11:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good Grief...have we all become so jaded that outragious Doctor's fees
are defended?
Sorry...I agree with the poster who complained...there is abslolutely
no reason why anyone should charge so much for an office visit, or
charge so much for Igenex testing that costs $165 for the Lyme Western
Blot!!!

I see a well known LLMD and his office visits are a FRACTION of those
charged by Dr. B, or the OTHER Dr. B in Easthampton.

I have friends who have been going to these people for 2 years...no
more...they were not miraculously cured, and the huge amount of
testing ordered by these doctors did NOTHING to improve their patients
health.

Since when is it proper to charge more for one sickness than another?
These Docotrs ARE opportunists...there is absolutely no reason why
some Doctors charge rediculous rates for phone calls when my Doctor
can call me from his car for free.

STOP defending rip-offs just because these guys supposedly know
Lyme!!!! Nothing justifies these attitudes.

In addition...the records of these PrimaDonnas are NO BETTER than
those of the Doctors who are reasonable in their charges!

If more of us simply said, NO...I am not going to be ripped off, then
they would get the message.

The analogy with the Mercedes was not valid. (Perhaps if you compared
how many Mercedes Doctors drive relative to their patients
charges...). When those with Lyme Disease go to a Doctor, the mental
state of these patients are used against them. A Doctor comes across
as ALL KNOWING...we tend to do what they say...only to realize after
all is said and done that we are not getting better, just poorer.
Buying a car is not the same as fighting for one's life...a car
salesman is not a Doctor...although both can sure sell a bill of goods
to the unsuspecting.


DO NOT justify a Doctor's charges by his legal fees...all Doctors face
the same malpractice rates.

I can see a top brain specialist in NYC for less than these "Gods of
Lyme" charge.

NOT one of you can prove these Doctors have a better "Cure Rate" than
anyone else that is Lyme Literate and charges much less.

Docotrs are humans and they too take advantage of the situation. Hell,
my friend that used to see Doctor B in Long Island, was charged $250
to see a P.A.!!!!! WHAT???

These were follow-up visits!!!!!!

MY FIRST VISIT COST LESS THAN THAT!!!

STOP being wacked twice...once by Lyme, and next by The Doctors.

In the late 60's we would have closed down these people...they are not
our friends.

No Doctor, no matter what disipline, should bankrupt his patients.

The Hippocratic Oath is NOT the HIPPOCRITIC
Oath.

Doctors should be more concerned with helping the patients...

Now, if you are still defending these people, tell me why some LLMD's,
IN ILADS, charge so much less?!!!

There is no valid defence for taking advantage of the sick...none.

Lymeindunkirk...I side with you here...you were ripped off when you
trusted someone in a position of power. You NEEDED help...NOT what you
received.

Peace, Love and Wellness,
JRW



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 12:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number one...
This post was to celebrate good news for Lyme patients, for a change.

This post was to inform others that more help for ALL of us is on the
way and that someone actually cared enough to make it happen.

Whining about and attacking LLMD's in public for whatever reason...
WITHOUT GIVING THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES... is NOT
what this post is about.



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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number two-
Because of the combined efforts of MANY LLMD's, I am alive today...
and so are so many many others. It appears this little fact is being
missed by those crying "not fair".

FAIR is knowing the facts before publically attacking others who can't
be here to defend themselves.

I have watched these LLMDs over the years... MANY years... do the
research and work incredibly long hours... above and beyond what they
get paid for... in the attempt to figure out what we can do to help
the growing numbers of chronically ill patients.

I watch them try to publish medical papers and when no one (ducks)
publishes them they spread their findings across the globe to help
anyone they can... again, without getting paid for it.

I watch them work never ending hours with patients I wouldn't wish on
my worst enemy.. patients with severe multiple continuing complaints
who have been abused by the ducks for years on end.... patients with
the brain power of an oyster and the body of a rotting mushroom...
patients crying about anything and everything and not taking
responsibility for their own health.. patients who demand to run the
show and tell the doctors what they need without having any experience
or knowledge... patients who expect them to be God-like and cure ALL
their ills and misfortunes in an instant and use many modalities to do
so, if they are trained to do it or not... patients who are
irrational, threatening, wicked, and vile... and patients who expect
the doctors to know everything about a disease that gets little
funding and NO attention from even the local health departments.

I watch them sell off their personal belongings to pay for legal bills
incurred when they have to fight for the right to treat you and me.

I have seen them mortgage their family homes to be able to provide
help for Lyme patients.

I have seen them weekend after weekend providing free programs to any
doctors or patients who will listen so they can help them... and using
their own money to do it.

I have seen them terribly upset when a patient isn't better and all
they know to do has been done. I see them suffer the pain along with
the patient and work behind the scenes to provide them ANY help they
can give. I actually saw a LLMD who personally took a patient (flew
with them) to another LLMD who might be able to give better help.

I have NEVER EVER been refused help or information by ANY LLMD or Lyme
literate lab I have contacted to help someone in need. Just this past
week a LLMD volunteered to see a patient and to do the workup for
them. A lab is also running the needed tests. This person was ready to
end their life until neighbors contacted me about the situation. I
couldn't say no. Neither could the LLMD.. or the lab. They offered to
get the patient help right away. They have been doing this for YEARS!

If you pay a bit more than YOU think the doctor needs.. why not chalk
it up to YOUR donation to help others who are worse off?

I have watched as the Lyme saga unfolds and have seen the personal
struggles not many have been privy to over the years.

I am honored to be associated with such good folks.

I have watched as the Lyme debate with the ducks has taken it's toll..
and a HUGE one on the patients. I have watched as the Lyme patients
themselves have caused undo suffering for these doctors by blabbing
their personal gripes in public. I have seen the Lyme world crumbling
as people who are SUPPOSE to be helping people, instead fight and
split us apart.

Do I want everyone to support the LLMDs?

You bet your sweet @@@ I do.

Without them.. we ALL lose. We all will suffer. We all will be at the
mercy of those who don't care and who purposely are trying to prevent
us from getting help.

Each and every LLMD is different. They ALL contribute in some way.
Those who have been up and out front with their help are the ones
under the most attack... and are the very ones who are taking all the
pressure off OUR backs as we TRY to recover.

I owe them my life. So do you.

To trash them publically is like cutting your own throat... and it
does us ALL a disservice.

I agree... they aren't perfect. Neither am I.. and my bet is neither
are you. But I know a good thing when I see it.

I agree, some do charge more than others. Some also PAY out more than
others. A nurse in NY makes double that of a nurse in Alabama for
example. And yes.. office expenses vary from place to place.. and
yes.. malpractice DOES cost more in some places than others. My doctor
recently had to drop to 20 hours a week because of the malpractice
rates in that state. He did 80 hours work for 40 hours pay last year..
and now does 80 hours work for 20 hours pay. He does it to help YOU.

The costs for malpractice insurance are so bad in the state where I
live that legislation has been introduced and doctors went on strike
because of the costs.

How many of you... who go to doctors who charge less... are publishing
papers for the good of us all? How many are providing the proof we
need to be able to get treatment?

How many are doing bonified research and sharing it with the world?

How many have developed guidelines? Or have helped the cause with
legal measures?

How many work with Congress to get laws passed to help US and future
generations? How many have attended the hearings and have written
letters to support legislation?

How many must pay attorneys out of their pockets to ward off all of
the IDIOTS who want them shut down.. so they can help US?

How many do free programs in their time off? How many organize and
attend conferences and/or present programs for other doctors, in order
to help them?

How many actively go to the newspapers and press to bring our plight
to the forefront in order to get US help we need?

Will I support these folks?

You bet your sweet @@@ I will.

And those who don't.. you might want to stop biting the hand that
feeds you.. and ME.

If not for your own personal gain.. for the benefit of those of us who
NEED these doctors and appreciate them for their contribution.

And I ain't done yet.

We must unite.

To not to so will bring more suffering and death.






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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 03:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number three-
It was said here..

"It's sad that there are doctors out there that are taking advantage
of the fact that they have a corner on the market."

This MIGHT just be the worst thing I have ever heard a patient with
Lyme disease say about a LLMD.

This is kinda like accusing a carpet cleaning company of bringing
hurricane floods to a specific area just to drum up work for
themselves.

These doctors didn't invent Lyme.. they didn't bite us.. nor did they
get anyone infected.

They certainly didn't wish it on us and they didn't have the ability
to stop it. To think they would gain by our tragic situations is sad.

And expecting LLMD's to cure us all is like expecting carpet cleaners
to hold up an umbrella to stop the 20 foot high crashing waves.

The LLMD's don't WANT people to suffer.. and haven't been sitting
there like vultures waiting to pounce on the sick and disabled.

They didn't make the ducks turn us away and strip us of all our money
without giving us a proper diagnosis or treatment... and prevent us
from getting help.

They didn't force a chronic illness on us. They simply stood up and
rose to the ocassion when it was presented to them... and attemped to
help in the best way they could. REMEMBER.. most LLMDs have a personal
stake in this health crisis and THAT was their motivation for helping
others.

We came to THEIR doors seeking help that we could NOT find anywhere
else. We asked, no BEGGED THEM, to take the risks and do something to
help us... and to heck with the "rules". They did help. They were the
few who did. They risk everything for us.

And remember.. a LLMD didn't come built with a set of instructions on
how to cure all of us. They had to learn.. and it costs to learn.. and
they are STILL learning.

Saying what was just said would be like saying...

A doctor in a third world country... with an exploding AIDS epidemic
going on... where
there are only 2 doctors per 1 million people, have a "corner on the
market".

How tragic it is that anyone would think that maleria, small pox, or
any disease would just be put here to allow someone... who had NO
control over the situation... to "corner the market" when they tried
to help and were surrounded by folks who wouldn't.

The LLMD's we have.. the few who would attempt to deal with this
problem ... are
NOT in this for the fame, fortune, or money. HA! That is one of the
most rediculious things I have ever heard.

We ain't worth it! Those things can be gained by many other avenues...
and to accuse the LLMDs who work so hard of doing that, especially
without having any acts to back it up... is HORRIBLE!

And how famous can a person become who is being bashed constantly,
threatened, and under attack?

If the LLMDs wanted those things.. this is NOT the easy or pleasant
way to get it. I can't imagine what a nightmare their typical day is..
each and every day. I mean .. look at what is being said HERE from
people the doctors stepped out on a limb and TRIED to help!

If a particular doctor doesn't suit your needs.. MOVE ON! Give them
credit for trying and admire them for helping others... instead of
bashing them for doing what thousands and thousands of others don't
bother to do... which is HELP us at their own risk!

Yes.. it is nice to have some part
time LLMD's offering to help Lyme patients now. It is actually
wonderful that they are being educated and are now getting on board by
taking on some new patients.

But you must ask yourself...

Where did they get the Lyme education to take on Lyme patients? How
many of these new PART TIME- LLMD's have been there from the get-go
and done the ground work that ALL the treatment is based on?

These newer doctors do have it easier than the early pioneers in the
field... and not to knock them for their beginning efforts... but I
don't see them opening research centers for folks using some of their
own funds at this point... or putting in the effort on the side that
was done for year after year.

Maybe someday? And if they do.. maybe they will have to raise their
rates to accomadate the new facility and provide staff for it? Should
I bash them for going the extra mile for the good of everyone?

And... WHO would have ever heard the word "Lyme treatment" if it
weren't for the ORIGINAL LLMD's?

How many newer LLMD's have NOT seen the work the original LLMD's have
done in the past... and have not followed it in some way, shape, or
form, to help YOU?

The few doctors we have.. and yes they have their quirks and each one
is different...
happen to be a handful of DEDICATED regular joe's who were thrown
(unexpectedly)
into an epidemic of unbelievable proportions and are dealing with it
the best they can...
and all the while are having to fight everyone to get US help and keep
their doors open so we have someone to help.

Yes.. I want a cure. I want more LLMD's. Heck, I would like to be able
to afford one of the best docs myself. I think I deserve it. But I
can't afford them. Knowing that... I certainly wouldn't go sit there
and whine and complain about it.. then kick them because of MY
personal financial situation.

I MUST take on some of the responsibility myself for my situation. I
MUST understand it is not THEIR fault I can not go there... it is
MINE! I can't expect them to cater to me and me alone. And I can't
bash them if my income prevents me from getting the best help out
there. I also can't afford the Mercedes.

Just the other day I had someone call who wanted the best of the best
for their situation. I mentioned costs.. and they said they didn't
care what it cost... they wanted the best. THEY could afford it.. and
MAYBE they will even donate extra to the cause so others will benefit?
That is nice to see. If they needed someone who took insurance.. I
would work on that angle. It is an individual thing.

If a dress doesn't fit when you buy it.. get another one. Don't bash
the dress cause your *** don't look good in it. The dress doesn't
deserve your wrath. It didn't make you eat that cake.

I want a LLMD in every doctors practice. It is OUR right to have such
a thing.

But it isn't going to happen until ALL of us work together.. and all
of us do our part to support these doctors and get them help they
require... so they CAN HELP US!

Until each and everyone of us can do the work these doctors do.. it is
unfair of us to kick them on a public forum where they can't defend
themselves.

If you don't like what they charge.. simply say.. IF ASKED..

"This doctor charges more than I can afford. Here is an alternate
approach."



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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 03:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And YOU.. yeah YOU... JR..
I ain't even started with you yet!

But NOT to worry.. your turn IS coming.



But first I need a break to bring down my blood pressure. I think I
will go jump in the lake and see if that cools me off.

And just to mess with your mind.. cause I know how you get...

I'll be in my birthday suit.






------------------
If you get the choice to sit it out or dance...





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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged


JRWagner
Frequent Contributor
Member # 3229

posted 13 June, 2005 05:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tincup...sorry to disagree. I am comparing Apples to Apples...Doctors,
LLMD's in the SAME STATE...approx. the same costs associated with
their practice.
Sorry...I do not see how this compares with a nurse from Alabama. My
Doctor is in Westchester...the most expensive county in NY, apart from
Manhattan.

In FACT, Dr. M, in Manhattan, an LLMD for years, charges much less
than the Doctors we are discussing.

Yes, yes, we all owe them gratitude...but NOT OUR BANK ACCOUNTS.

Have
Please explain how my Doctor does not charge for phone calls, etc.

Please justify charging more...Oh, I know...they have hidden costs my
Doctor does not? Sorry...wrong again.

STOP being infatuated simply someone trests Lyme...

By the way...I have discussed this with my Doctor (LLMD, HUGE LYME
practice)and he JOKINGLY stated that he must raise his rates as well.

Attacking? These Doctors attack your financial well being...but I
guess this is OK? When are you going to stop being taken?

Can one of you prove to me, or to anyone else, that the Doctors who
charge more have more expenses? Can you show "cure" rates are better
with these Doctors? Can you show that ordering all the tests and
charging a profit for these tests makes sense?

In addition, I am not going to a Doctor for tests...I am going to be
cured...aren't we all? Unless you accept the premise that this is not
possible...I don't...and I have been sick for 11 years.

My Doctor, and others that I know of, charge based on ability to
pay...HOWEVER...they do NOT approach the rediculous fees these other
Doctors charge.

When I told my Neurologist, at Cornell/Pres., what these LLMD's
charge, he could not believe it...he charged my $155 for my first
visit...and the man is a well respected neurosurgon!!!!IN
MANHATTAN!!!!

Think: Are his costs LESS than those outside Manhattan? PLEASE!

If you all are so naive as to think that higher rates mean a better
Doctor, I have a bridge for sale.

Perhaps you would like to speak to MANY friends who went to Dr. B, the
Guru...and have found him less that desirable...treatment was the same
as from my Doctor...

POINT is we TRUST these Doctors to be better...and they are NOT!!!

PROVE THEY ARE!!! Stop accepting and stand up for yourself...defend
the Doctors who charge and treat fairly...

Yes it MIGHT be a good thing that someone is setting up a research
facility...but what will the criteria be? What will be the costs to
the patients? What "research" will this Doctor do that has not already
been done? Will there be PHD's in Bacteriology employed here, or just
MD's??? etc., etc.


I am not disrespecting anyone...but when a Doctor's office charges
$250 for a follow-up visit...with a P.A., and my Doctor charges less
than that for the FIRST VISIT...what does this say to you?

Your logic says the Doctor has a right? WHAT HAPPENED to the concept
of helping the patient first, and business second?

I am not saying these poor Doctors should do this for free, but enough
is enough.

Yes, the Mercedes analogy was only appropriate when we are discussing
how many Mercedes we patients helped the Doctors purchase, by paying
too much.

YES...you can all do what you want...but paying more only guarantees
you will be poorer...not healthier.

Proof that this society has become so money orientated that we can
overlook such obvious price gouging.

Hell...at the ORIGINAL Woodstock Festival a food vendor was trashed
for charging $5 for water...in 1969!!!! I guess to you, supply and
demand trumps principal?!

Pay what you want folks...you will ultimately reach the same stage as
someone paying far less...guaranteed.

I choose to defend fair Doctors...not those who over charge, and if
you can't see this, sorry...being grateful does not mean being naive.


JRW



Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 11:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whew.. shake MY tail feathers.. what a nice dip.
Not YOU... JR.. the one in the lake!



You said.. "Tincup...sorry to disagree."

I am glad we can disagree and still be civil... and friends. I have
respect for you.. as you know.. and the others here.. and I know I am
coming on strong.. so I am happy to see you rise to the ocassion and
share your views... and accept mine in rebuttal. Thanks!

Bottom line.. I am happy that YOU are happy with your choice in
doctors. That is what means the most to me.

You said.. "Please justify charging more...Oh, I know...they have
hidden costs my Doctor does not? Sorry...wrong again."

I am not able to say exactly why your doctor charges what he does...
but I do know why others have more expenses. I have personally
contacted them and asked about it so I would feel knowledgable about
sharing info when asked... and to sooth my own questions about it. I
mentioned earlier about the lawyers, research costs, higher overhead,
programs, etc.. so others here will simply need to figure out what
their doctors do and adjust the costs to figure it out for themselves.
If they feel they don't want to pay the fiddler.. don't. No one is
making them do that.

You said.. "STOP being infatuated simply someone trests Lyme..."

NOT quite sure what that trasnslates to.. but if I am guessing right..
no never mind... I can't decide what that means. Sorry.

You said.. "Attacking? These Doctors attack your financial well
being...but I guess this is OK? When are you going to stop being
taken?"

Actually JR.. and others.. I don't have a LLMD right now. I can't
afford one. I can't even afford a good duck at this point... if there
were such a creature. Wish I could wrangle me up a LLMD.. but the fact
is.. the ducks got all the dough years ago.

So no one is attacking MY financial well being. And no one is "taking
me". Except Mel Gibson of course...

I am not able to pay.. so I just don't go. That is opposed to going
and whining. If those who can't afford to go wouldn't commit
themselves to going.. they wouldn't have anything to complain about
either. If they were that concerned about costs and money.. they
should first do their homework and check it out.

You said.. "Can you show "cure" rates are better with these Doctors?"

I have NEVER ever ever ever said or told anyone they would be cured by
going to ANY LLMD.. EVER!

I have NEVER ever ever said if you pay more, the doctors "cure" rates
are better... no matter what.

Truth is.. It is all gamble. There are NO "for sures" in Lyme. Those
with lots of money can remain just as sick as those with little. Money
does not buy a cure for Lyme.

Kinda like going fishing. I can go to the local gas station and buy a
dozen worms for $3.25. If I go to the next town over to get them.. it
costs me only $2.95.

Will I catch more fish using the worms I paid more for? I doubt it.

Do I argue with the place because I must pay more for the worms I need
when I go fishing? No.

Am I being a bad consumer by not complaining and whining when I am
buying the local worms? Perhaps? However, if I go to the next town
up... about 30 miles round trip.. the costs for gas need to be figured
in... and MY energy levels too.

Am I happy with the worms I pay for.. expensive or cheap?

When I catch fish I am.. just like when I go to a doctor .. and they
help me.

If I pay for the worms.. no matter what the price.. and I don't catch
fish.. I'm not as happy.

You said.. "Can you show that ordering all the tests and charging a
profit for these tests makes sense?"

When I have tests done.. and I can't speak for all places everyone
goes to.. I have to order the kits myself... and wait for them to
arrive. I then must make an appointment.. HOPE the doctor will even
consider running them... explain my heart out why I need them and what
I need... do the homework in advance to be able to explain the
details... beg them to draw blood or give me an order for it.. travel
to the lab to get the blood drawn on the right day so it can be
shipped.. wait there for my turn.. go through the same explanations
over again... educate the lab techs about what I need and how to do
it.

Then.. I must double check things.. wait for them to finish.. rush the
package to the post office before closing after putting everything
inside.. HOPE I got it right.. and wait.

Then I have to contact the doctors office.. wait for someone to TRY to
explain the results.. which they can't.. go back and pick up a copy of
the results myself... learn how to read them properly... and cipher
through to see what it all means.

I would be THRILLED if someone were to do that for me and not make me
have to go through that mess anymore. I would gladly pay more for that
service. It already costs me a lot in time and effort.. as well as
cash... to do what can be done for me at a LLMD's office.

You said.. "In addition, I am not going to a Doctor for tests...I am
going to be cured...aren't we all?"

I guess that is one area where we see things differently. I will be
happy if I am cured some day.. but I no longer expect to be. Not with
a LLMD that costs a little.. or one that costs more. I am being
realistic in MY situation and do not choose to chase the elusive cure
and beat myself up when it doesn't happen.

So.. when I go to the doctors.. I actually DO go for the tests so I
can monitor my situation the best I can and try to learn all I can so
I can be my best... and help others who are in the same boat... and
hopefully make a contribution. So our goals are different in that you
are seeking a cure and not tests.. and I am doing the opposite.

You said.. "If you all are so naive as to think that higher rates mean
a better Doctor, I have a bridge for sale."

Again.. I have NEVER indicated higher rates means a better doctor or a
better cure rate. Some folks go to a doctor 50 miles away that may
cost more.. but they save on plane fare, hotels, etc. Some prefer to
go to one that specializes in herbal stuff, Bartonella, brain scans,
etc. The costs DON'T make the doctor.. and folks are free to chose. If
one is 6 hours away and costs $200.00 less.. it may be worth the trip.
It is a matter of what each individual thinks they can afford and what
suits them best in THEIR circumstances.

You said.. "Perhaps you would like to speak to MANY friends who went
to Dr. B, the Guru...and have found him less that
desirable ...treatment was the same as from my Doctor..."

EXACTLY MY POINT! The older LLMD's have put in the time.. and have
handed their findings out to one and all so everyone has the best
chance possible to help themselves!!!

I LOVE them for doing that. And they don't charge me one cent for
their work.. or your doctor one cent for him to be educated.

It was nice of Dr. B to share all his hard work and research with YOUR
doctor (and everyone who ever inquired)... so YOUR doctor could treat
you and others and NOT be in the firing line and threatened to be
closed down... and digging out from under additional costs.

Luckily your doctor didn't have the same research expenses.. the same
persecution problems.. and the horrific legal expenses others have in
the past ... which got ALL of us to the point we are at now. You
benefitting from all this is good!

I do hope your doctor and all the others are, in turn, making the same
contributions to the cause and are writing up their findings, coming
up with more answers for us all, kicking *** and are able to help
many patients... etc. I hope now that all Lyme patients aren't
concerned their doctors doors could be shut tomorrow with NO notice...
like the ones who are sticking their necks out.

But the truth is... research costs money. Those who don't do it save
money. ONGOING research helps us come up with more answers. Ten years
ago I don't think ANYONE was checking Lyme patients for a dozen
coinfections. Now they are. SOMEONE is still trying to better the
situation for all. If their costs are higher to a handful of
patients... so be it. I would gladly contribute if I could.

You said.. "POINT is we TRUST these Doctors to be better...and they
are NOT!!! PROVE THEY ARE!!! Stop accepting and stand up for
yourself...defend the Doctors who charge and treat fairly..."

I do defend the doctors who treat Lyme patients.. as you can tell by
my posts. I am devoted to them for doing what they have done. They
can't be here to speak for themselves.. and I certainly can't speak
for them.. but I WILL shout from the mountain tops when I see them
being slammed by someone who does NOT know the facts.

BUT.. if I find a LLMD to be doing something that will endanger or
harm a patient.. I will be the first one in their face... and I will
come out punching. Office fees are NOT a good reason to punch out
someones lights because paying them is the choice of the individuals
who chose to go there.

I do not... and will not.. try to disect all the reasons a LLMD
charges one fee or another. Just like the worms. If I want them and
can afford them.. I pay. I don't complain that THEY are the problem
when I can't afford the fees... when in fact it is my own purse that
prevents me from seeing any of them.

If I find someone who can help me for less.. that is great.. but I
don't expect the LLMD's who don't have the research and legal expenses
that others do to have the same fees. It is nice some doctors can
simply read and then treat, no muss no fuss, from the well prepared
reports based on years of LLMD's experiences. That is what we need.

You said.. "Yes it MIGHT be a good thing that someone is setting up a
research facility...but what will the criteria be? What will be the
costs to the patients? What "research" will this Doctor do that has
not already been done? Will there be PHD's in Bacteriology employed
here, or just MD's??? etc., etc."

What if I told you there will be free testing and treatment for anyone
who enters the studies? And not only will the patients get the best of
everything... they will be contributing to research so others can be
helped?

What if I told you there will not only be MD's.. but biologists,
chiropractors, acupuncturists, O2 therapy, rife machines, and the best
labs, etc.. all for free?

It would be nice... no doubt. But I can't say what they will do
because I really have no clue.

Neither do you.

Neither does anyone here.

If anyone wants to know.. ASK! I would have, but haven't had a chance.
I am simply announcing a new facility.. the first of it's kind.. that
should be able to help MANY patients.

EVERY decent research paper that comes out helps me. And that in turn
is used to help others. I am excited that I MAY have more answers
soon.. and that SOMEONE cared enough about us to help all of us.

You said.. "I am not disrespecting anyone...but when a Doctor's office
charges $250 for a follow-up visit...with a P.A., and my Doctor
charges less than that for the FIRST VISIT...what does this say to
you?"

My guess is some folks will never have the experience others have had
in the past and will never look beyond their pocket books at the true
inside story to be able to explain this type of thing. Some will never
bother to ask a LLMD why this happens... and will always complain
about money. I wish that wouldn't be the case.. but it looks as if it
is.

MY question is... why trash LLMD's when people don't know the true
story? That's all.

You said... "Your logic says the Doctor has a right? WHAT HAPPENED to
the concept of helping the patient first, and business second?"

Do me a favor. I have a list of over 180 ducks I have seen. If you
will.. ask THEM this question. THAT is where MY money went. That is
where that 30 million just went that the taxpayers forked out...

Yes.. for duck based research. That is where the taxpayers money went
when that vaccine was developed and over 1,000 patients were
negatively affected. I want THOSE answers first. Over 18 years worth
of dumping money... for nothing.

Now.. if a doctor charges me more to make a bigger profit.. and he
helps me in the mean time.. so be it. Geeze.. I can't expect someone
to save my life and then question them after the fact about their
costs. I won't slam the guy who sells me firewood when I need it
because he wants to make more for his family.. so why try to slime the
LLMD's? That is ASSUMING this is the case.. which I am NOT assuming at
all. In my mind I am satisfied that I have researched enough now to be
comfortable with the answers and situation.

Do I wish the charges were less for everyone? Yes, of course I do. I
actually feel NO ONE should have to pay for ANY medical care in our
country. Can I fix that? Not until I become president.

As long as the product is good and I am happy.. so be it.

You said.. "Yes, the Mercedes analogy was only appropriate when we are
discussing how many Mercedes we patients helped the Doctors purchase,
by paying too much."

Actually this sounds like a very "stero-typical" comment. Kinda like
finding doctors on the golf course. Many I know have never played
golf.. much to MY surprise! I usually try to judge on an individual
basis when someones reputation is on the line.

One of the best doctors I know had a small truck that he was still
making payments on.. and it was older than mine.

I actually had a doctor recently who painted houses for a living. He
only saw folks after normal working hours.. sometimes still dressed in
his painting clothes.. in his home on the back porch. He LIKED being a
doctor.. but even if everyone in town were sick... all the time..
there still wouldn't have been enough people to support him and his
wife in their small home.

And trust me.. if I could afford a fancy car.. I would buy one. I
don't begrudge others for being able to have something I can't. Makes
no sense.. and I would live an awful unhappy life if I did. I don't
slam Bill Gates for making money when I am happy with his computer
stuff.. but maybe that's just me?

Actually.. tain't none of my business what anyone makes. If he is
happy, I am happy, and no one is hurt.. who cares?

You said.. "Proof that this society has become so money orientated
that we can overlook such obvious price gouging."

I would rather spend my time barking up the IDIOT ducks trees.. and
the insurance companies tree. Now THAT, is a sin.

You said.. "I choose to defend fair Doctors...not those who over
charge, and if you can't see this, sorry...being grateful does not
mean being naive."

I choose to defend any doctor who puts out an effort to help others.
That is MY first criteria. I am especially dedicated to the LLMD's..
the ones who I grew up watching as they stuggled to find answers for
me... and saved MY life and the lives of many others.

I only wish this passion everyone has when their pocket books are in
question would be focused on the ones REALLY responsible for this
mess... the ducks... the insurance industry.. and the ones who suck up
research money and produce horrible results.. or none at all.

Now.. my friend... have I talked you to death yet? I may not be able
to express my point of view correctly sometimes.. but I can surely
wear people down having to read through my rambling. HA!

It's been nice coming out to play tonight. I think you have stated
your position very clearly. I very much respect for people who take a
stand on a topic they are passionate about... even if they ARE wrong.
(JUST KIDDING)

I am simply hoping to show folks the other side... and I know you
think that is the fair way to be.

Now... want some ice cream? It's hotter than get out in here. I guess
it is time for another dip.

NO.. NOT you JR... the lake and the ice cream!





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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

Tincup
Frequent Contributor
Member # 5829

posted 13 June, 2005 11:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was going to try to reply to others tonight.. but I am plum wore
out. Will do so later, if you don't mind.



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Posts: 3536 | From: The Moon | Registered: Jun 2004 | IP: Logged

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