Re: Finally someone makes a modicum of sense on lymenut re herxes YAY kman543210! and other good info suprise suprise shock of the day

Mom from texas actually quotes some accurate information about doxy
being bacteriostatic not bacteriacidal.

It is questionable pharmacologically if high doses of doxy make the
mechanism of action bacteriacidal but there is some support for that
proposition.

Of course then lymetoo completely confuses the subject by saying that
low doses must be ineffective because they don't "kill" obviously
missing the whole basic premise that antibiotics work in two ways:

One, bacteriacidal. Two, bacteriostatic. Bacteria like most living
things have a limited life span. They reproduce which is how infection
lasts and propogates. A single bacteria would be highly unlikely
itself to cause pathology any kind of bacteria. Bacteria have hard
cell walls. Antibiotics are selective in that they do not attack the
cells of your body which do NOT have rigid cell walls, only bacteria
do.

One way that abx work is that they lyse or destroy the cell walls.
That mechanism of action causes the toxins in the bacteria to spill
out. The body reacts by releasing pro inflamatory chemicals which is
part of the immune response, for example, chemokines and cytokines are
released. These chemicals which are part of the normal immune response
to foreign invaders cause inflamation and can produce J-H reactions
particularly where there is overwhelming infection.

The other way abx work is to inhibit the growth of new cells walls
which is bacteriostatic. So the existing bacteria die off their
natural deaths and limited life spans. But new ones are prevented from
forming.

So it isn't that bacteriostatic drugs are ineffective at low doses
because they don't "kill"

It is that they inhibit the growth of new cell walls.

Another way to do it.

By the way while antibiotics are selective in killing only organisms
with rigid cell walls which are bacteria (not parasites or viruses or
the cells of your own body) they kill both "good bacteria" and "bad
bacteria" the "good" ones being ones that are, for example, part of
the ordinary flora in your stomach and aid in digestion which is why
people on long term broad spectrum abx should definitely take
probiotics, acidopholous or eat live culture yogurt which contains the
same thing and replenishes the "good" bacteria in your gut.

Sometimes relatively simple things seem to escape even old timers like
lymetoo (maybe I should say often rather than sometimes?). And bad
advice like more antibiotics is automatically better, higher doses,
combos and long duration when the big problem with all of that is that
it might well be inducing symptoms by causing systemic yeast
infections and the symptom overlap between the two diseases makes it
impossible to tell what is lyme (or the various coinfections) and what
is induced by the treatment in terms of systemic c albicans.

Also: there is absolutely no reason to believe that one would herx
from babesia or bartonella treatment or so many other things people
claim are herxes.

But kudos to kman and to mom from texas--her "logic" on the insurance
fraud thing is missing but she is on target here. But bigger kudos to
kman!

I doubt he'll last there.



http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=063308#000000

Author Topic: Doxy does NOT kill only SUPRESSES???
cjnelson
Frequent Contributor
Member # 12928

posted 11 February, 2008 07:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this true? I have read this twice now and confused as to why this
is used or recommended if it only supresses and why in the heck would
we herx if it isnt killing?????????????

--------------------
Seeking renewed health & vitality.
---------------------------------
Do not take anything I say as medical advice - I am NOT a dr!

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Posts: 475 | From: TN | Registered: Aug 2007 | IP: Logged

hiker53
Frequent Contributor
Member # 6046

posted 11 February, 2008 07:56 AM
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If doxy does not kill, it allows your immune system to do the killing.
Think of it as a booster for the immune system. Some people do believe
that the higher doses of doxy are bacteriocidal. Hiker53
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Posts: 1276 | From: Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004 | IP: Logged

sixgoofykids
Frequent Contributor
Member # 11141

posted 11 February, 2008 08:38 AM
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Low doses suppress high doses kill. That's why most take 300-400 mg
per day.
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Posts: 2144 | From: Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007 | IP: Logged

Momfromtexas
Frequent Contributor
Member # 13726

posted 11 February, 2008 09:31 AM
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cj,
When I researched Doxy I read the same thing sixgoofykids said in
several places.

Doxy is referred to as bacteriostatic.

From Wickipedia - "Bacteriostatic antibiotics inhibit growth and
reproduction of bacteria without killing them; killing is done by
bactericidal agents.

Bacteriostatic agents must work with the immune system to remove the
microorganisms from the body.

However, there is not always a precise distinction between them and
bactericides; high concentrations of most bacteriostatic agents are
also bactericidal, whereas low concentrations of bacteriocidal agents
are only bacteriostatic.

This group includes the tetracyclines, sulphonamides, spectinomycin,
trimethoprim, chloramphenicol, macrolides and lincosamides." --
(I added the line breaks to the quote)

Doxy is a macrolide.
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Posts: 119 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2007 | IP: Logged

Geneal
Frequent Contributor
Member # 10375

posted 11 February, 2008 09:34 AM
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Doxy also has an anti-inflammatory property which helps with

Swelling. That helped a lot of my joint pain.

I made good progress initially with doxy.

Hugs,

Geneal
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Posts: 2921 | From: Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged

adamm
Frequent Contributor
Member # 11910

posted 11 February, 2008 11:29 AM
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Joost a bit of clarification, though:

Doxy is not a macrolide; it is a tetracycline that is often

used in conjunction with a macrolide (an abx such as

zith, roxy, biaxin, etc.).

--------------------
Got Bb/Bart: 5/07

Doxy 200 mg/day for 1 month after bite

Doxy 400/ rifampin 600 / Cefdinir 600 mg taken for 1 month - begun
11/07

As of 1/22-- 1 g biaxin, 800 mg/ Cat's Claw/day

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Posts: 767 | From: WI, usa | Registered: May 2007 | IP: Logged

Lymetoo
Frequent Contributor
Member # 743

posted 11 February, 2008 12:53 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sixgoofykids:
Low doses suppress high doses kill. That's why most take 300-400 mg
per day.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess that's why so many people go chronic when a duck gives them
200mg per day of doxy.

--------------------
Do not take this as medical advice. I am not a doctor, but I DID stay
at a Holiday Inn Express!

oops!
Lymetutu
My story: http://tinyurl.com/3brsbz

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Posts: 31704 | From: Texas TuTu | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP:
Logged

Momfromtexas
Frequent Contributor
Member # 13726

posted 11 February, 2008 05:15 PM
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adamm is right it is a tetracycline not a macrolide. Thanks adamm, I
had forgotten that.
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Posts: 119 | From: Texas | Registered: Oct 2007 | IP: Logged

.

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