Re: Tick attachment time

On Jun 22, 2:17 pm, the 3rd Man <derdrittemann2...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 22, 10:47 am, trad...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

On Jun 21, 5:25 pm, the 3rd Man <derdrittemann2...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

It could very well be appropriate in this context.   It's a 6 year old
child we're talking about.   Can you guarantee that the kid didn't
pull a tick off and not remember or not tell about it for a variety of
reasons?   Maybe he just felt something in his hair a few days later
and scratched at it, etc.   You think a 6 year old is thinking about
ticks and Lyme?

LOL.

Again...what we were talking about (in context) was the normal time a
tick must be attached to convey Lyme disease.

Cave, apparently, cited this abstract for the proposition that the
time could be substantially less...without reading the details
particularly carefully. (I guess I am learning that this is somethign
of a problem, here).

Hey...maybe space alines came in the night and removed the tick. Who
knows, right?

Maybe you should stick to facts and not speculate.



(Seems as though this abstract is not titled very well. yes, Lyme was
probably contracted with a less than 36 hour attachment...but only
through human intervention).

Specifically, the issue here was advice given to the poster who had
only been at Lake Mead less than 24 hours.

First, it was never stated that they were at Lake Mead less than 24
hours, only that they spent one night.   They could have arrived at
9AM and left at 9PM the following day for a total of 36 hours.  So,
pay attention yourself and stick to the facts.

Oh...GAWD. The poster says they were there for one night. Then they go
home and observe the bites but no attached ticks.

Yes, and that DOES NOT EQUATE TO YOUR STATEMENT THAT IF THERE WAS A
TICK IT COULD HAVE ONLY BEEN ATTACHED FOR LESS THAN 24 HOURS. Got
it now?




See if you can figure that one out. No, it absolutely does not mean
under ALL circumstances that is absolutely what happened.

But you stated that absolutely any tick was on less than 24 hours, so
no infection could have occured. From the timelime and statements,
that is totally false.



Now...I wasn't there, okay? So...even though you may not have noticed
(actually, I would say that I am pretty sure that you did NOT)...I
have been extremely careful to express only
LIKELIHOODS...probabilities. Look back at what I have said...it is
only expressed in terms of probabilities. The reason for that is
because I really DO NOT KNOW.

That's the first thing you've said that I agree with.




If you ever get around to taking the time to think about this...
(doesn't seem likely from what I am reading of your thought processes)
you might eventually come to the inevitable conclusion that
probabilities, uncertainties are what you are dealing with whenever
you are dealing with issues like this.



Yes, and that's why I'd rather take the probabilities by getting my
child on antibiotic, because the risk/benefit ratio is obvious to
me. The risk of a few weeks of antibiotic is small. The risk that
the child was infected is much harder to calculate. To me, to err on
the side of caution is to get the antibiotics now. Eventually,
without any new data, we're told the physician finally agreed. What
exactly is your problem?




Second, if a tick were present, who says it must have hopped off
BEFORE they left?   It could have been on for a lot longer and come
off days later.

Maybe agents of the "Steere Camp" invaded their camp in the middle of
the night...removed the tick...and then returned the kid to "Camp
B"...just to mess with them...and because, according to people like
"Mort"...that's the kinda thing they enjoy doing. What do you think?



I think the probablility that a tick could have been present during an
overnight camping trip and come off days later is a lot higher than
agents implanting one. At least in my world, but perhaps not yours.





Under those circumstances, you see...it is highly UNLIKELY...even if
the bites were tickbites...that the tick would have been attached long
enough to convey Lyme disease.

Yes, unlikely, but how lucky do you feel today with the life of your
child?  And how comfortable are you with 3 doctors, looking at bulls-
eye rashes over two weeks later, saying they are consistent with a
Lyme rash, and then saying to just wait and see what happens.

Well, first of all...you are AGAIN...misquting what the poster
reported as having happened. There were NOT three doctors, according
to the poster...WHO WAS THERE...who thought this was Lyme disease.

No, I am not misquoting. Read what I posted above. I said they had
three physicians who looked at the bulls-eye rashes 2 weeks later and
said THE RASHES WERE CONSISTENT WITH LYME. That doesn't mean they
thought the kid had Lyme. It means the rashes looked like Lyme
rashes. Got it now?

And that is enough to push me to get the antibiotic. Again, the
physician finally gave the kid antibiotic, so what's your problem?




He
specifically said that they did NOT. But wanted to wait and observe to
see if symptoms developed. The poster researched the observed rash
online. READ it. PLEASE.

Why don't you read it?

"Two days ago, 4 of the bites seemed to get bigger (almost
overnight).
The bite looked like it has a red circle around it. After
researching
the bite online, it seemed to look like Lyme disease. The next day
we
went to the doctor. When we saw the doctor, he immediately brought
in
another doctor to get another opinion. They both thought it could be
Lyme disease, but were not sure. We were then taken to a
dermatologist who thought the same thing. They all thought it was
odd
that he had 4 of these bites, no sign of any ticks attached and no
symptoms (he feels perfectly healthy). Their recommendation was to
watch it for the next two weeks and see if it goes away and if any
symptoms develop."


All 3 physicians thought the rash could be Lyme disease, which is
exactly what I stated.






BUT...yes, that really IS the QUESTION that I keep repeating ...and
NOT getting an answer to.

What EXACTLY are the risks of witing in a case like this to see if
symptoms develop?

Now...I read what some have said about the symptoms being so mild in
initial satges as to be unoticeable. And, as I recall it, this may be
true...IF you don't know what to look for.

In other words...looking back at what happened with me...if I had
known to associate the headaches, joint stiffness and fatigue with
possible Lyme...if I was watching for that...then maybe when that
appeared, I would have been administered antibiotics in time to
prevent more serious problems from developing.

Good grief. You actually had Lyme that went untreated and turned into
serious problems because it was not recognized and treated early?
And then you have a problem with those of us that give advice to
others to get antibiotic for a child that went on a camping trip and 2
weeks later has bulls-eye rashes that are consistent with Lyme? Are
you for real?



And what I keep asking...and not getting any answer to...is if waiting
longer for symptoms to develop...so long as you are still within the
"window" of successful treatment options...exposes the patient to a
signifigantly higher risk of longterm problems...or not.


No one knows exactly what the window is. As for symptoms, how many
do you need? The kid in the thread under discussion has bulls-eye
rashes over 2 weeks after a camping trip. That's one major
symptom. How many more do you need. Want to wait forever, like
apparently happened in your own case? Why is that? Do you need
justification to make you feel better about your own inaction?






Surely you are aware that there are plenty of people who years later
have symptoms of late stage lyme and test positive for Lyme, who have
no knowledge of ever having been bitten.

And the big risk of a few weeks of antibiotic to protect against a
lifetime of medical trouble is?  

Ask a doctor.

That pretty much answers that question.


And your claim that people giving

advice on this to a person who asked for it constitutes some kind of
unwarranted "medical advice", that should only come from a physician
is ludicrous.  

No, I don't think so. When someone says that "doctors are wrong", I am
right...well...what would you call that?

I'd say they came to the right conclusion BEFORE the doctor, who
eventually got there without anything new happening, except the parent
insisted on treatment. What kind of doctor tells a person
presenting with rash consistent with Lyme two weeks after a camping
trip to just wait and see what happens? Sure, the rash is going to
go away. Perhaps there are no other symptoms and years later, the kid
develops late stage Lyme. Sounds pretty dumb to me.




The "physician", told the parent to wait awhile with

the rash and "see what happens".   What kind of medical advice is
that?  

Well, what, exactly is the problem with that? Do you understand the
question?

Yes, and I've outlined the problem above as well as previously, but
you just whistle past the graveyard.





 Anyone with a lick of sense knows the rash will resolve on

it's own, whether it's Lyme or not.

HUH? So? What are you talking about? You don't treat the rash...

I'm talking about the fact that you have one major symptom of Lyme.
And the doctor told the parent to just wait and see what happens,
which implies let's just let the rash disappear. How much more do you
need to happen before you take the precautionary step of a few weeks
of common antibiotic that is safe and effective?







BTW, the physician did finally agree to antibiotic.   Hope that makes
you feel better.

Yeah...thanks for that.

LOOK...I had a tick taken off of me IN A HOSPITAL BY A DOCTOR. OKAY?
He didn't think it was necessary to give me antibiotics.

When I started to twitch and shake...he sent me to a neurologist, (who
ruled out Parkinson's). But by the time I was able to see the
neurologist...I had waited so long for the appointment that I was
already "disseminated".
And the neurologist was TOLD about the tick his colleague had removed.
And he didn't click. We didn't have it around here..(LOL).

Several years of medical misadventures ensued until someone thought to
test for Lyme. By then, as you probably know...too late.  Ten years
ago...and still having occasional problems. Heart trouble.  Slurred
speech. Difficulty walking. There's more...trust me...(it just bores
me to repeat this)...

I get it. See...I doubt anyone understands the issue more forcefully
than me. I had EVERY opportunity to catch it in time...and did not.

ALLRIGHT? Okay with you?


No, it's not okay with me. Having gone throught that, I don't see
how anyone could take the position that a child presenting with bulls-
eye rashes consistent with Lyme two weeks after a camping trip, should
not be given antibiotic.




To answer your question...yes, it does make me feel better.

I am glad that the poster and his doctors came up with a consensus on
how to proceed.

Yes, and if mom hadn't been told to get after the doctor by people
here, the outcome could have been very different. The doctor
apparently changed his tune without waiting for any more symptoms to
possibly develop.



That's exactly the way it should work, in my opinion...and if you
bother to actaully read what I have been saying...ALL I was doing was
saying talk to your doctors...AND...questioning how online "pundits"
address these questions.

I would suggest to YOU...that neither you nor anyone else has even
bothered to offer any explanation of why waiting to see if symptoms
develop increases the risk of longterm complications.


Just look at your own experience for the answer to that question.

.

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