Re: Whole dietary patterns vs. reductionist approach

From: Mirek Fidler (cxl_at_volny.cz)
Date: 07/31/04 

Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:47:49 +0200

> > Zero association for cholesterol.... direct opposite to what dr.
Ornish
> > tries to say us....
>
> It's probably oxidized cholesterol, not dietary cholesterol itself,
that
> is a problem.

Agree.

> >>But, increased intake of unrefined carbohydrate sources,
> >>more preferrably from vegetables than domesticated fruits
> >>or whole grains, in the context of a diet adequate in protein,
> >
> >
> > Do you realize how many vegetables you need to eat to gain any
> > significant carbohydrate calories?
>
> Yes. A lot! This is precisely the point. In the Jenkins very high
fiber

Then I can agree at this part. Eating A lot vegetables is always a good
thing.

> diet intervention I cited, subjects consumed 5 kg/vegetables and
fruits
> per day. He called the diet "essentially starch-free", and 38% of
calories
> were derived from sweet fruits,

Still these are fruits, not vegetables.

> 22% from fats, largely nuts and seeds.
>
> The diet included 55g/fiber per 1000 kcal. Serum lipid profile and
> colonic function measures were stellar after only one week, far
superior
> to the starchier alternatives he used as comparisons.
>
> http://www.canoe.ca/Health0104/02_diet-cp.html

To starchier alternatives.... No comparison to my diet of choice -
instead of fruits to get calories from fructose/glucose use fat - with
similiary high fiber portions. That is high fiber, high phytochemicals,
moderate protein and 50% fat.

> > Of course, eating tons of veggies leads to calorie restriction and
good
> > healts and that is a good thing, but if you go on high vegetables
diet,
> > you will automatically cut carbohydrates portion of your diet....
>
> I think that you mean non-fiber carbohydrate. It is not neccessarily

No, I mean calories portion. I meant that it is really diffult to get
enough calories from non-starchy vegetables. I think link you posted
just proves it (and they were alowed to eat much more calorie dense
fruits!).

> true, however, when fruit and vegetable intakes are very high,

Only when fruit intakes are very high. There is substantial difference
between fruits and vegetables - fruits are much more calorie dense
without significantly more fiber and micronutrients. And those calories
are from sugars, so they are more likely to spike BG/insulin and cause
high TG / low HDL.

Even Ornish admits that his diet increases TG. And LDL/TG ratio seems to
be the best predictor for LDL particle size, while LDL particle size is
the best predictor of oxLDL (large LDL is less prone to oxidation).

Research also that type 'A' persons with large LDL particle size (70%
population, in low risk for CVD) are "converted" to dangerous type 'B'
(with small LDL size) when going on low-fat/high-carb diet; while type
'B' does well on this diet. So perhaps high-carb diet works well, but
just for 30% of population.

> It is time for the world to become aquainted with: the vegetable! And
the
> fruit! In a major way. And to stop demonizing the dreaded
carbohydrate,
> which can come along in some very healthy packages.

As I have said, I completely agree with very high vegetables
consumption, but I am not that enthusiastic about fruit. I think that
world can enjoy some good fat as well :)

And, BTW, nobody is demonizing carbohydrates coming in healthy packages.
When I am demonizing carbs, I am talking about concentrated sugars and
starches with low nutritional value.

Mirek

Relevant Pages

  • ORAC experiment in humans
    ... Tables showing the ORAC scores of various fruits and vegetables have been presented on ASD recently. ... In a trial of 12 healthy women studied in a metabolic ward, consumption of a diet depleted of dietary carotenes for 2 months resulted in increased rates of lipid peroxidation.22 In the other trial, increased consumption of monounsaturated fatty acids was associated with a lower susceptibility of LDL cholesterol to in vitro peroxidation.23 In a clinical trial of fruit and vegetable consumption, a diet high in fruits and vegetables increased serum antioxidants, including carotenoids and flavenoids24; however, the effects on lipid peroxidation were not examined. ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
  • Re: Whole dietary patterns vs. reductionist approach
    ... > Do you realize how many vegetables you need to eat to gain any ... diet intervention I cited, subjects consumed 5 kg/vegetables and fruits ... I think that you mean non-fiber carbohydrate. ...
    (sci.med.nutrition)
  • Re: Whole-Grains provide a lot more fiber, than fruits & vegetables
    ... Whole wheat bread supplies 5 g of fiber for a 100 calories serving. ... Some fruits and vegetables supply more fiber per 100 calories than most ... Effect of a very-high-fiber vegetable, fruit, and nut diet on serum lipids and colonic function. ... We tested the effects of feeding a diet very high in fiber from fruit and vegetables. ...
    (sci.med.nutrition)
  • Re: Whole dietary patterns vs. reductionist approach
    ... > but these were all from fruits, vegetables, legumes, and to a lesser extent, ... That kind of diet is very close to the healthiest I ... (Nurses' Health Study, Health Professionals' Follow-Up Study) ...
    (sci.med.nutrition)
  • Re: weight loss programs
    ... But the word "diet" did not originate to mean weird thing ... comprised mostly of fruits and vegetables." ... as being eating or not eating certain ... input per calorie output leads long term to fat however the calories are taken ...
    (misc.kids)