Re: Gluten Problems

From: tcomeau (tunderbar_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 10/21/04 

Date: 21 Oct 2004 09:05:17 -0700

Dunne E. Dawe <never@never.again> wrote in message news:<bo8en0hrcm5grk4s6uue6r1eqgs1lfad8u@4ax.com>...
> On 18 Oct 2004 07:44:46 -0700, tunderbar@hotmail.com (tcomeau) posted:
>
> >Dunne E. Dawe <never@never.again> wrote in message news:<urf6n01gf44if6ppsn881iosmse7hjccj4@4ax.com>...
> >> On 15 Oct 2004 11:59:59 -0700, tunderbar@hotmail.com (tcomeau) posted:
> >>
> >> >Dunne E. Dawe <never@never.again> wrote in message news:<h4nvm0pkgc1ptjqi97v0djgc22egiqi47t@4ax.com>...
> >> >> On 13 Oct 2004 12:51:06 -0700, rangerhasten@yahoo.com (Wolfbrother)
> >> >> posted:
> >> >>
> >> >> > No body NEEDS
> >> >> >to increase whole grains. There is nothing essential about them.
> >> >>
> >> >> So all the B vitamins in whole grains are not essential? Huh?
> >> >
> >> >The b vitamins are essential, the grain most definitely is not.
> >>
> >> You said there is nothing essential about whole grains. Now you say B
> >> vitamins in them are essential.
> >>
> >
> >What I said was that grains are most definitely not essential.
>
>
> No, you said "There is nothing essential about them. [whole grains]
> Feel free to change what you said.
>

There is nothing essential about grains. They may contain relatively
small amounts of what are essential nutritients but we do not need
grains in our diets to get these essential nutrients. In fact refined
grains deplete us of these essential vitamins. Graisn are a poor
source of nutrients and when refined they deplete us of nutrients.

Go ahead and do all the semantical gymnastics you want, knock yourself
out. It will not change the reality that grains are poor nutrition.

> >You are
> >arguing false and nonsensical semantics. You want to debate, debate
> >the facts not the semantics.
>
> And the fact are that there is nothing in grains that is essential?
> I think you are wrong and said so. Get over it.
>

semantics. you still lose the argument.

> >> >There
> >> >are much better sources for these vitamins
> >>
> >> There are "much better sources" for any essential nutrient. It's
> >> surely what we injest in toto that counts.
> >>
> >
> >Yes. And the quality of the food that contains the "toto" makes a
> >difference "in toto".
>
> Yep, and whole grains along with many other foods are top quality, and
> why you seem to have some irrational set against whole grains makes me
> think that you are an Atkins "true believer" and we all know that you
> can't argue with these folk.
>

Grains are nothing more than grass seed that has been genetically
modified over 10000 years to produce larger seeds. Evolutionarily
speaking, we have no need for grass seed in our diets.

>
> >
> >> >that don't include the
> >> >gluten-related problems and the harsh and abrasive fibre that comes
> >> >with most, if not all, grains.
> >>
> >> Harsh fibre? Oats? Gluten is a probem in a minority of soft, overfed
> >> Westerners. What problems are caused by the "harshness" of fibre?
> >>
> >
> >They are abrasive, insoluble and unmetabolisable.
>
> All fibre is unmetabolisable. That's the definition of "fibre".
>

See, this is where you show pure ignorance on the topic of nutrition.
There is such a thing as metabolisable fiber and non-metabolisable
fibre. Grain fiber is mostly non-metabolisable.

> Do you have any evidence of this "abrasiveness that causes problems in
> normal folk?
>

Colon cancer among grains eaters.

>
>
> >They physically
> >scratch up our GI tracts like no other food does. Our one stomach was
> >not designed for that abuse.
>
> Huh? Do you have any evidence for this novel assertion? Or do you just
> think it must be so?
>

Colon cancer among grains eaters.

> >
> >> >And grains are rather poor in most vitamins especially B12
> >>
> >> Most vitamins? What is high in B12? You seem to be saying that
> >> because you can't get all you need from whole grains, then you
> >> shouldn't eat any of them? What foods couldn't have this said of them?
> >>
> >
> >Again, semantics.
>
> Well yes, you seem to be getting them rather wrong.
>
> >The relative low content of most nutrients,
>
> In whole grains? Please look up your food tables. You are wrong!
>

Compare it to any fruit, vegetable or animal source food. Graisn are
relatively low in nutrients. And do not contain any vitamins b12 or C,
and is very deficient in many other vitamins. The staff of life is not
even close to being a good all around source of nutrients.

> > the
> >complete absence of others,
>
> All foods are deficient in some micronutrient. Please get real. That's
> why we should eat a lot of different foods in our diets.
>

Some more than others. Refined grains is not only low in nutrients,
but they deplete you of nutrients as it is metabolised.

>
>
> >the high incidence of gluten related
> >complications,
>
> What is the incidence of this in the billions of South, Southeast and
> East Asians?
>

You tell me.

>
> >the abrasiveness of the fiber,
>
> again, please tell us what problems the abrasiveness of foods causes
> normal folk? Humans need bulk in their diets. Atkins causes
> constipation. Go figure.
>

Some grain husks are used by woodworkers to abrade and finish wood on
wood lathes. This is the same stuff you want to pass thru your GI
tract. Go for it.

Atkins diet restricts grains and replaces them with healthy low-gi
fruits and veggies. Take any fruit or veggie and puree it with a
blender and feel, with your hand, the texture of the resulting puree.
Then take a handful of any whole-grain and do the same. The texture of
the grain is very harsh and abrasive, especially in comparison with
the fruit or veggie puree. You want to put the grains thru your GI
tract, go for it.

>
>
>
> > the high-carb
> >obesity-causing nature of refined grains,
>
> Whoa ,you were talking about whole grains, remember? Semantics are
> important :)
>

That is why I specified refined grains when speaking of obesity. I was
using precise language and not abusing semantics like you like to do.
Glad you noticed.

>
>
> >all contibute to the
> >conclusion that grains are good for four-stomached ruminants and not
> >so good for humans.
>
> Funny then that grains are not often consumed by wild ruminants.
>
> Ruminants are built to digest cellulose. Whole grains don't have much
> cellulose , so are ideal for humans on that basis.
>
 
All ruminants eat grasses and their seeds aka grains. They are built
to digest fiber and other substances that are undigestable to humans.
Substances like gluten and grain germ and, of course, cellulose.

>
> >
> >> >and contain
> >> >no vitamin C among others.
> >>
> >> Is that all you are going to eat? What single food do you advocate to
> >> get ALL your nutrients?
> >>
> >
> >A good variety of fruits, vegetables and healthy meats. Variety is the
> >key. And grains are not necessary for good health. In fact my argument
> >is that we are healthier without grains.
>
> None of them is necessary for good health. Your argument seems to be
> based on some mantra, and not the evidence. Just because there are
> some foods that need to be avoided by some folk, does not mean that
> that food is bad and should be avoided by all. There are plenty of
> grains without gluten if that is what you have developed a problem
> with. Just saying that whole grains are bad is plain stupid, on the
> evidence.
>

Grains are not bad. They are just not as nutritious and as healthy to
human life as you would have us believe. They are completely
superflous to good health and create more health problems than they
resolve.

> >
> >> Grains are a staple for most of the world and have been for thousands
> >> of years. ALL foods can give problems in minorities, thank heavens
> >> that we can choose from a huge variety of available foods.
> >
> >We've been exposed to grains for about 10,000 years.
>
> and what did we do before this? Our aborigines in Australia have been
> exposed to grains for at least 50,000 years while they were here. I
> guess they also got grains from where they came from, but perhaps not.
>

Meat, roots, berry, fruit, nuts, fish, etc. If grains were part of the
diet, they were in much smaller amounts than we eat today and they not
the preferred food, and they were specially prepared by extensive
boiling, fermentation and other methods to make them more digestible
and palatable.

> >We evolved
> >millions of years without appreciable amounts of grains.
>
> Who did? We had grains in our diets. What was different was that we
> didn't eat much and got plenty of exercise. Are you perhaps looking
> for some scapegoat for the modern overfed underexercised condition
> many of us find ourselves in?
>

Northern Europeans were introduce to agricultural grains about 2,000
years ago by the Romans. The fertile crescent in the middle east began
culturing grains abotu 10,000 years ago. Before that, the only grains
consumed were in very small amounts that were gathered manually. They
were not the first choice for food, but were used when necessary.

>
>
> >10,000 years
> >is not a long time, evolutionarily speaking. It is still a very new
> >food for our species.
>
> I disagree that it is new. We would have eaten whatever was available
> and whatever didn't kill us. Grass seeds available, we'll eat them.
>

It was only physically possible to gather tiny amounts of grass seeds.
It was labour intensive and was not the preferred food.

> >
> >Grains do not just create problems for a minority.
>
>
>
>
> > It has created
> >problems for the majority. Obesity, diabetes, cvds, these are all
> >associated with our over consumption of grains and grain products,
> >especially refined grain products.
>
>
> Again, you've changed the subject, but do you notice the phrase "over
> consumption" that you used? Does that give you a clue?
>

You advocate eating plenty of grains. My point is that any grains in
the diet is unnecessary. Therefore from my pov you advocate over
consumption of a food that is not necessary for good health. In fact,
eating any grains causes more health problems than it resolves.

>
> >
> >The staff of life is killing us.
>
> Hallaluja! Praise the Lord and pass the greasy cheese sausages :-)
>

Absolutely. Fresh sausages made from healthy, well-fed beef and pork,
is absolutely delicious on a grill, slathered with my own low-carb bbq
sauce. Along with a fresh summer salad of lettuce, finely chopped
shallots, diced vine ripened tomatoes, radish slices, grated carrot,
chopped pine nuts, with olive-oil-based savory vinaigrette. Tomato
slices on the side. What a dish.

Pork fat rules. :-)

I'm eating like a king and feeling like one. Lost twenty pounds, met
my goal weight. Blood lipids are bang on. No high blood pressure
either. Never been healthier. Haven't had a cold or flu in four years.
IBS is gone. Haven't needed a single prescription in four years.

Enjoy your grains.

> Atkins Shill!

I have never been on the atkins diet and I have never advocated the
atkins diet.

Your agenda is to save the animals. Who's the shill? Are you a member
of PETA?

TC

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