Re: We should all eat like a Mediterranean

From: Gymmy Bob (nospamming_at_bite.me)
Date: 10/22/04 

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:50:47 -0400

So you don't know either?

"Dunne E. Dawe" <never@never.again> wrote in message
news:fqbhn05ivu8g2c2ceglbv2e5mqatgqhgof@4ax.com...
> On 21 Oct 2004 07:36:56 -0700, tunderbar@hotmail.com (tcomeau) posted:
>
> >Dunne E. Dawe <never@never.again> wrote in message
news:<7c9en0pjef9a197qqtmi486vm0tqjqqq50@4ax.com>...
> >> On 19 Oct 2004 09:59:56 -0700, tunderbar@hotmail.com (tcomeau) posted:
> >>
> >> >This calorie thing. By what mechanism does the body recognize an
> >> >excess of calories and by what mechanism does the body then trigger
> >> >fat storage.
> >>
> >> Through evolution, energy containing foods are conserved by the body
> >> for later use, and stored as the most energy concentrated molecule,
> >> fat. Excess energy-containing molecules are detected by their presence
> >> when all energy requirements are satisfied.
> >
> >How are excess energy-containing molecules detected, exactly?
>
> By molecular concentration, and enzymes ready to convert them to
> storage molecules. The law of mass action. Elementary chemistry.
>
> > What
> >exactly happens when all energy requirements are satisfied?
>
> The high energy molecules build up in concentration and are then
> converted to molecules suitable for storage. These go into lipocytes
> when in high enough concentration.
>
> >I want to
> >know the metabolic pathways, the hormonal signals, or whatever precise
> >biological mechanism that detects the bodies energy status and
> >responds by triggering fat storage or use.
>
> Concentrations of the molecules concerned. Try a simple biochem text.
> The body doesn't "measure" the energy content. It has just evolved to
> convert excess high energy molecules into fats and then store them in
> lipocytes. The actual energy balance always balances when we calculate
> the energies concerned.
>
> >You aren't answering the question. You are generalising. I want the
> >specifics. You don't need to write it all out, just point me to a url
> >or another reference source that specifically lays it all out in
> >detail.
>
> I've told you. Any first year biochem text.
>
> >> Fats are made by various chemical pathways (glucose to fat in the
> >> liver, for instance) and this excess fatty acid is stored in
> >> specialised tissues in various parts of the body.
> >>
> >
> >No ***. What is it about calories that triggers the fat storage?
>
> It's fatty acid concentration that "triggers" fat storage. What do
> calories have to do with it? Calories are merely a measure of the
> energy contained in the chemical bonds of these molecules. This energy
> can be utilised for many of the body's energy reqiuiring activities --
> muscular activity and the like.
>
> >> >Conversely, by what specific mechanism does the body
> >> >detect a dietary calorie deficit and by what mechanism does it then
> >> >trigger fat burning.
> >>
> >> Fat is burned every minute of every day by the body. Stored energy is
> >> mobilised whenever there is s need for energy by the body that is not
> >> met by the liver's store, or circulating energetic molecules.
> >>
> >
> >You keep explaining it in very general terms. I want to know the
> >specifics. How specifically does the body recognize that its energy
> >requirements are not being met by the liver's store, or circulating
> >energetic molecules?
>
> Concentrfations. You seem to be having some basic conceptual
> difficulties.
>
> >By osmosis?
>
> This aids some molecules to pass certain barriers to free diffusion.
>
> >By fluke?
>
> No, when the concentration on one side of a chemical reaction is high,
> the reaction moves to the other side. You have studied a little basic
> chemistry, I hope.
>
> >By chaos theory? By ESP?
>
> Yet more lack of understanding? And you have had it explained before?
> I'm beginning to wonder about your motives.
>
> >By hormonal response?
>
> Hormones will be involved in facilitating some reaction pathways.
>
> >By sensory cells?
>
> Yes, these can sometimes permit some chemical transactions to go ahead
> (feedback loops). Can't think of any particular examples at the
> present time.
>
> >By receptor molecules?
>
> Not sure what you mean here.
>
> >By broadband antennae? Huh?
>
> Are you trying to be dense? You seem to be succeeding.
>
> >> >What are the specific bio-chemical steps in both processes?
> >>
> >> I suggest you consult an elementary biochemical textbook to learn all
> >> about lipogenesis and lipolysis and other energy storing and
> >> mobilising pathways. They are quite straightforward and very well
> >> understood.
> >>
> >
> >Can you point me to one that explains how calories and specific
> >quantitative caloric intake relate directly to lipogenesis and/or
> >lipolysis.
>
> I've said several times, any elementary biochem text.
> As I've tried to explain, molecular concentrations drive reactions.
> The molecular species determines exactly how much energy is contained
> within the bonds of that molecule.
>
> >And more importantly how exactly is the body bio-chemically
> >aware of its caloric deficit or excess and how exactly does it
> >bio-chemically trigger lipogenesis and/or lipolysis.
>
> You seem to have a misconception of just what energy is. Energy is
> needed by the body to carry out many of its functions. It all
> originally comes from the Sun. Every molecule has a certain energy
> associated with its chemical bonds. When you break a bond, an exact
> amount of energy is transacted. Similarly when you create a bond. The
> body does not "measure" energy, it "measures" molecular
> concentrations.
>
> >I've read quite a number of elementary biochemical textbooks and quite
> >a few not so elementary and I've yet to see any clear, concise
> >explanation of the direct and specific connection between caloric
> >intake and the triggering of lipogenesis and/or lipolysis.
>
> Perhaps you have missed it because of this confusionn of what energy
> is. Get that straight, and I think you might be OK.
>
> >> By the way, I was looking in the archives, and see that all this has
> >> been fully explained to you at least several times previously.
> >> Why do you keep bringing it up? What are your motives here?
> >>
> >
> >You guys keep giving me the kind of general non-answers that you just
> >BS'ed your way thru just now.
>
> Or you keep having problems understanding plain English. I've seen
> some folks have actually pointed you to specific references for all of
> this. I've yet to see a biochem text that does not deal with this
> topic. It is basic.
>
> >It is obvious that if we accept the caloric theory of weight gain and
> >loss, then the body has to have a way to recognize a state of either
> >excess energy or a state of energy deficit.
>
> See above. You have quite a problem there. Get your enegy concept
> right and you should be well on the way.
>
> >And then the body must
> >take the excess energy and store it or conversely, when the body is in
> >an energy deficit state, it must start using up fat.
>
> Stop thinking of energy and think of particular molecules. Then you
> can look them up to see how many calories they have available when
> converted to something else.
>
> >You just repeated
> >the above using a little bit of scientific terminology.
>
> Yes, you had better get used to some scientific terminology. It makes
> understandig so much easier. Try writing down some simple definitions
> and refer to them as you go.
>
> >That is all
> >that you have done. That is the only response, to this question, that
> >I've seen in this ng. I keep asking the question and keep getting the
> >same non-answers.
>
> As I said. Leave the energy out for now, and just think of molecules.
> You can introduce the energy later when you are not so confused.
>
> >What I asked for was not just a rote repetition of what must be
> >obvious vis-a-vis the calorie theory. What I asked for was a detailed
> >scientific explanation of the bio-chemical processes that does all of
> >this.
>
> I've told you. basically it is detection of molecular concentration
> via simple chemical principles.
>
> >The metabolic pathways, the hormonal cascades, cells, molecules,
> >etc. Not just what the body "must" do vis-a-vis calories, but the
> >actual facts about what it does, and much more importantly,
> >*specifically how* it does it.
>
> Far too complex to go into here, but all texts I've seen deal with it
> well.
>
> >What is the specific bio-chemical mechanism that detects the bodies
> >energy status at any given time?
>
> Molecular concentration. The body can't actually measure the energy
> content of a molecule, it can only do what it is programmed to do with
> various molecules. When it "needs" energy, it does things with
> particular molecules that just happen to contain a lot of energy.
>
> >How does it detect the status,
> >specifically?
>
> Molecular concentration. Gee, you ask this question a lot. I sense
> your frustration.
>
> >Once the energy status is determined, how exactly does this specific
> >bio-chemical energy detection bio-mechanism then specifically trigger
> >lipogenesis and/or lipolysis.
>
> See above.
>
> >The questions are so simple and fundamental, yet they have yet to be
> >answered.
>
> No, the answers given have yet to be understtood by you, I'm afraid
>
>

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