Re: biggest loser - strange stuff - answer the question, Dawe

From: tcomeau (tunderbar_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 11/01/04 

Date: 1 Nov 2004 11:22:56 -0800

Eric Bohlman <ebohlman@omsdev.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95916F92FA42Bebohlmanomsdevcom@130.133.1.4>...
> tunderbar@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote in
> news:b550f406.0410290655.58065bb0@posting.google.com:
>
> > Dunne E. Dawe <never@never.again> wrote in message
> > news:<d0o3o0hv4n47l1cchh35sqpqeuualmp6pk@4ax.com>...
>
> > Why is it limited to fat weight. The laws of physics say that you
> > cannot gain any mass if the intake of energy is less than is needed to
>
> Or the intake of mass, such as the mass of water.
>
> > maintain the system in a neutral state. They are consuming less
> > calories and expending more, therefore, theoretically they are in a
> > constant calorie deficit state. There is no excess calories to convert
> > into mass, fat or protein or anything else, gross or otherwise.
>
> > Exactly. If you are in an obvious and constant caloric deficit state,
> > and you have accomplished this by obviously consuming a low calorie
> > diet and by obviously working out constantly (thus burning more
> > calories), as they are doing on this show, then you cannot account for
> > any weigh gain (where did those calories come from?), you cannot
> > account for failure to lose weight. The only result that is
> > mathematically possible is a weight loss.
>
> Assuming water levels stay constant, yes.
>
> >> >The body
> >> >cannot create mass from a caloric deficit, period.
> >>
> >> Of course it can, but not of energy-containing molecules. Water is a
> >> non-energy-containing molecule. Every litre weighs 2.2 lbs!
> >>
> >
> > And your point?
>
> That you can make yourself weigh more by consuming more water, and you can
> make yourself weigh less by excreting more water. Any high-school wrestler
> knows that. And the changes in weight are completely independent of energy
> intake. Water in your bloodstream, tissues, GI tract, and bladder pushes
> down on the scale and makes the numbers go up. Water in the plumbing
> system doesn't.
>
> > The body can use up all the energy in a given food.... or not. It can
> > use it for energy or for tissue rebuilding, depending on the state of
> > the body and the hormonal effects of the foods eaten. A
> > high-refined-carb diet will cause a high blood glucose level which
> > will trigger insulin spikes which will in turn trigger fat storage
> > regardless of any caloric deficit or excess.
>
> Leaving aside the fact that the insulin spikes only occur in people with
> metabolic syndrome, if the person is running a caloric deficit then that
> fat will later get "unstored", i.e. burned for energy. If the person does
> have metabolic syndrome, he'll get pretty hungry by the time that happens,
> and there's a very good chance he'll consume some more energy at that
> point. But if he resists his hunger, his level of fat will go down.
>
> > If it was as simple as calories-in vs calories-out, anyone who wanted
> > to be thin and put in even a moderate amount of effort would be thin.
> > But that isn't the case, is it?
>
> Do a google search for the term "pro-ana" and then read the Web forums it
> brings up. You'll see quite a few posts from people who have been *very*
> successful at getting *very* thin by doing exactly that.
>
> > How does the body detect it's caloric state, whether a deficit or
> > excess. And once the caloric state is detected what are the
> > bio-chemical changes that trigger fat storage or fat burning as a
> > direct result of the caloric state? How exactly does this work and
> > where do the caloric state fit within the various metabolic processes?
>
> If you aren't satisfied with the explanation you got a few days ago, get
> any biochemistry textbook and read it. Even one written 40 years ago (when
> the professor who wrote it wouldn't have gotten much research money from
> Big Pharma).

For the umpteenth time, your "explanation" was not an explanation as
much as it was an exercise in logic based on an assumption that leads
to the logic, re-iterated ad-infinitum.

I've read a good number of bio-chem textbooks, newer ones and older
ones, and not a single one of them showed clearly a direct
bio-chemical link between calories, caloric state detection (ie.
excess or deficit), and the caloric state inducing fat storage or
loss. There is no bio-chemical process or any other bio-chemical
mechanism that explains, in detail, how the body can specifically
detect an excess or deficit of calories and there is no process
whereby the body, as a result of detecting an excess or deficit of
calories, then triggers fat storage.

It is all a figment of false logic based on false assumptions. The
assumption being that the laws of thermo can be directly applied to
mathematically predict weight loss or gain by counting calories-in vs
calories-out. It is impractical. It does not work in the real world.

Yes, the laws of thermo apply to the human body. It just does not
apply in such a way that we can count calories-in and calories-out and
predict weight gain or loss. If it was that simple then everyone and
anyone who counted calories would be thin.

That is my last word on this discussion with you. Take it or leave it.

TC

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